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No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job

nytimes.com

191–200 of 221 posts

Re: No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "citation needed" type of response is also antagonistic in what is a discussion site rather than an academic paper.

I see where you're coming from, but it's good to impose the burden of proof on the person making the claim. If the person making the claim can't be bothered to dig up any supporting information, neither can others. It keeps the quality of discussion higher than otherwise. One one or two occasions, when I was about to post something, I looked for evidence, and realised I was mistaken, and didn't mislead others.

You're making pretty strong claims but haven't supported a single one of them.

Re: No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job

#192
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Plus, I have yet to see the evidence that colleges provide this virtuous yet intangible quality of non-economically beneficial "wholesome" education. The biggest performance dilemma I noticed upon entering college is basic literacy. I saw most people reading at a 9th grade level, which is average for most Americans, and struggle to write a 2 page paper. That 2 page paper was hardly competent once written. The probl…

>Holy shit people. Pick up a damn book and read. How you communicate will influence how you write code. This is a problem when most information consumed are now either in Video ( TV / YouTube, etc ), Pictures ( IG with short or no description ), and Short form of writing ( Blog Post / Internet Comments ), even worst is when most of these are for Entertainment. And there is a trend of basic literacy falling even those…

My 9 year old son comments on spelling mistakes in the in-game text or captions on Minecraft videos by adult vloggers. My 9 year old son is Dutch and he recently started to comment on English spelling mistakes.

Sadly he also learns new words on youtube and in games, and sometimes I need to correct his spelling and he doesn't believe me.

Re: No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone not studying with taxpayer money.

So rich pretencious snob becomes incharge of the culture?

Since it doesn't seem like either of us is going to change the other's mind, let's move on from this debate.

Re: No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t care about who owns it. But paying income taxes on 50k of forgiven debt would be hard for me.

Sure, it might be hard. But my point is that it can't be harder than paying the debt itself. Debt forgiveness does not leave you in a worse position unless your marginal tax rate is more than 100%, which is vanishingly rare.

What? If I make 80k a year having the IRS think I made an extra 50k puts me in a new tax bracket

Re: No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job

#195
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There are other ways to appreciate art and culture, such as visiting museums, reading books, watching documentaries or other youtube videos on these topics, etc. These are all free or much cheaper than a course in a college. You haven't demonstrated how an academic setting is better and worth the cost. Academics is necessary to teach people how to create, understand and appreciate Art and Culture. People writing boo…

> Academics is necessary to teach people how to [...] understand and appreciate Art and Culture. Any evidence in favor of that claim? > If you think these skills can be obtained from reading books I didn't say that nobody should study these fields; just that they needn't do so on taxpayer money.

Here is the OECD report http://www.oecd.org/education/ceri/arts.htm which stresses the importance of Arts in education and benefits of arts to students (even students of non-arts subjects). They also conclude that "The arts have been in existence since the earliest humans, are parts of all cultures, and are a major domain of human experience, just like science, technology, mathematics, and humanities. In that respect, they are important in their own rights for education."

Some Universities have Arts appreciation course for non-arts students who are interested in knowing, understanding and appreciating Art.

>just that they needn't do so on taxpayer money

May I know the rationale behind this? If I understand correctly, what you're trying to say is that letting people study these subjects on taxpayers money is a waste of public money, which I think is not true. There are people with Academic arts background who have contributed to the society. Even (for the sake of argument) if these are not economically rewarding areas of study, is it justified that the whole field of arts which has been there almost since the beginning of mankind to be not funded by the government just because the system under which we currently live doesn't find it profitable? Is it justified to deny access to an entire group of people who are interested to study Arts but they can't because they don't have the money to pursue it?.

Re: No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, it might be hard. But my point is that it can't be harder than paying the debt itself. Debt forgiveness does not leave you in a worse position unless your marginal tax rate is more than 100%, which is vanishingly rare.

What? If I make 80k a year having the IRS think I made an extra 50k puts me in a new tax bracket

But it's only a new marginal rate, so it still only applies to those extra 50k

Re: No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job

#197

You know, it's funny, there's a lot of comments saying something along the lines of "college isn't just to get a job". Which is really funny, since that's absolutely the primary reason why college educations are pushed. E.g. "if you don't go to college you'll end up working at McDonald's" Plus, I have yet to see the evidence that colleges provide this virtuous yet intangible quality of non-economically beneficial "wh…

I have never found the argument that "college isn't about getting a job" convincing. Yes, it's important to be well rounded and expand your horizons and all the other platitudes that people say. But I'm not paying tuition to be "well rounded", I'm going to college as an investment in my own human capital. I can read an interesting book in the evening to be "well rounded".

Perhaps some people are paying tuition to such intangible benefits, just you (and I) aren't. Many people in such situations likely repudiate the whole concept of "human capital" (and maybe with good reason).

Re: No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never found the argument that "college isn't about getting a job" convincing. Yes, it's important to be well rounded and expand your horizons and all the other platitudes that people say. But I'm not paying tuition to be "well rounded", I'm going to college as an investment in my own human capital. I can read an interesting book in the evening to be "well rounded".

Perhaps some people are paying tuition to such intangible benefits, just you (and I) aren't. Many people in such situations likely repudiate the whole concept of "human capital" (and maybe with good reason).

That does seem like buying a car factory because you like the new car smell, in a way. Maybe it's the bias of my own experiences, but I can't imagine what rational person faced with the realities of the world would spend tens of thousands of dollars (and $1 million+ over thier lifetime potentially) and years of thier lives in pursuit of what is essientially a curiosity or hobby (unless they are already very well off).

If one does have such an intense interest in some topic, getting a "real degree" at college would offer them a lifetime of spare money and time to pursue it. You can't do much painting working 80 hours at McDonald's only to not be able to afford paint. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Re: No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? If I make 80k a year having the IRS think I made an extra 50k puts me in a new tax bracket

But it's only a new marginal rate, so it still only applies to those extra 50k

The average American doesn’t have the savings to pay that extra amount is what I’m getting at. And I’m average.

Re: No Tuition, but You Pay a Percentage of Your Income if You Find a Job

#200
post #155
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it stepped at all? Do you owe nothing before 50k and then once you cross that threshold you now owe money? That would seem to incentivise staying below that threshold for a percentage of borrowers. I also have difficulty seeing the first benefit you list as being a benefit. I don't have a problem with people pursuing degrees in fields that aren't big money makers, but I also don't know that the government should b…

> I also have difficulty seeing the first benefit you list as being a benefit. I don't have a problem with people pursuing degrees in fields that aren't big money makers, but I also don't know that the government should be in the business of incentivising people to study in these fields. It's actually one of the best things about the system. Maybe you want to be a social worker who will never earn much but will make…

You make the mistake that the relationship between income and value to society is inverse. Delivery people, for example, or store clerks or the like are all not paid well, but their impact on society isn't particularly profound either. The loan payment structure gives people an incentive to have a lower paying job as opposed to a higher paying one, which isn't the right way to go about it.
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