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Why is Maxwell's theory so hard to understand? (2007) [pdf]

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Re: Why is Maxwell's theory so hard to understand? (2007) [pdf]

#101
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand differential equations ;-) That page describes Maxwell's equations and the Lorentz force law. That a naive approach cannot work can be seen by considering the following example. Take one charge initially at rest with huge mass, and another light charge orbiting around it. According to Lorentz law it will orbit in a circle for the right initial conditions. However, then according to Maxwell's equations it…

define radiate? if you calculate the poynting vector you see energy is not really leaving the system in this case, although there certainly is electromagnetic oscillation/rotation/circulation, so there is no energy violation. 1) If we consider the ground state of a system this behaves as expected quantum mechanically: there is motion in the ground state but no energy leaves the system! Why hold Maxwell equations to a…

jules is pointing out that, as EM + distributed matter is a non-linear set of equations, you can't easily give meaning to point masses. This is true, but the original implication, that the backreaction on matter is ill-defined or "shizophrenic" does not follow. This is a general feature of relativistic theories where you can not have rigid bodies.

Re: Why is Maxwell's theory so hard to understand? (2007) [pdf]

#102
post #99
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand differential equations ;-) That page describes Maxwell's equations and the Lorentz force law. That a naive approach cannot work can be seen by considering the following example. Take one charge initially at rest with huge mass, and another light charge orbiting around it. According to Lorentz law it will orbit in a circle for the right initial conditions. However, then according to Maxwell's equations it…

Then stop playing with words and say what you mean. Point charges make sense without qualification in EM, that much is true. But that doesn't mean that there is something strange or fishy going on here. You can formulate Lorentz forces using mass distributions and you're fine (it's right there in the next subsection of the wiki). The pathologies don't appear. Of course the resulting equations are non-linear, and that…

I'm not trying to play with words...by EM I mean Maxwell's equations and the Lorentz force law. I think that's the conventional meaning. The point is that these two are taught in an EM class as if it's a single coherent theory that tells you what point charges do.

Mass distributions don't solve the issue in a satisfactory way, in my opinion. If you replace a particle with a finite size sphere you've solved the infinity but lost relativistic invariance. You could perhaps come up with a way to hold the charge distribution together in a relativistically invariant way, but that can hardly be considered part of EM, and might involve arbitrary choices. That a dipole behaves differently than a monopole is clear. That's already the case even if you ignore the self interaction.

The question "What happens if I put an electron in a uniform magnetic field?" or "What happens if I have two electrons?" seems like it should be answered by EM. One can hardly ask a simpler question. I'm pretty sure that most physics students who've had an EM course are under the impression that they should be able to answer this question. When I was in such a class it was never explained that this was even an issue, and when I asked about it the answer I got was "just wait for QED".

If you don't like the word "schizophrenic" for this issue, that's cool. I think it's descriptive, but YMMV. Wald's slides say:

> Classical Electrodynamics as Taught in Courses

> At least 95% of what is taught in electrodynamics courses at all levels focuses on the following two separate problems: (i) Given a distribution of charges and/or currents, find the electric and magnetic fields (i.e., solve Maxwell’s equations with given source terms). (ii) Given the electric and magnetic fields, find the motion of a point charge (possibly with an electric and/or magnetic dipole moment) by solving the Lorentz force equation (possibly with additional dipole force terms).

That's all I meant by it.

Wald's slides are interesting, thanks :)

Re: Why is Maxwell's theory so hard to understand? (2007) [pdf]

#103
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, one of the main reasons why maxwell is so hard to understand is that everything is expressed using quarternions unlike Heaviside who expressed the equations using the vector notation we see them expressed in today. In reality ‘Maxwell’s’ equations are in fact Heaviside’s.

Arguably the reason that generations of STEM students have been horribly confused about 3-dimensional vectors and rotations (including electric/magnetic fields), etc. is that they were reframed in the confused and non-generalizable Gibbs/Heaviside language, instead of in Grassmann/Clifford’s formalism in which vectors and bivectors can be properly described as separate types of objects. It can be so much nicer. http:…

Reminds me, I've been meaning to read this [0] blog post for a while now. (See also the HN discussion [1].) My clueless intuition tells me its points may be analogous to your linked document. (It mentions Heaviside, at least.)

[0] https://www.gamedev.net/articles/programming/math-and-physic...

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18365433

Re: Why is Maxwell's theory so hard to understand? (2007) [pdf]

#104
post #48
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"E&M is far from "simple". It contains special relativity, for starters." A theory (which is just a set of assumed first principles and rules of logic) can be simple but allow you to deduce vast complexity from it. In fact, it is ideal for a theory to be as simple as possible. The "game of life" is not really a theory, but it demonstrates that simple rules can lead to surprising complexity: https://en.wikipedia.org/…

I reflexively downvote the game of life. I have never heard of a single useful application or analogy of “finite automata.” Yes, there are speculations about extremely small Planck lengths, by no new physics has panned out. Finally I am sad that one of the greatest computer scientists and polymaths, Ed Fredkin, got sucked into this. We all have weaknesses.

    > I have never heard of a single useful application or analogy of “finite automata.”
lol.

Re: Why is Maxwell's theory so hard to understand? (2007) [pdf]

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguably the reason that generations of STEM students have been horribly confused about 3-dimensional vectors and rotations (including electric/magnetic fields), etc. is that they were reframed in the confused and non-generalizable Gibbs/Heaviside language, instead of in Grassmann/Clifford’s formalism in which vectors and bivectors can be properly described as separate types of objects. It can be so much nicer. http:…

Reminds me, I've been meaning to read this [0] blog post for a while now. (See also the HN discussion [1].) My clueless intuition tells me its points may be analogous to your linked document. (It mentions Heaviside, at least.) [0] https://www.gamedev.net/articles/programming/math-and-physic... [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18365433

Perhaps start with https://www.shapeoperator.com/2016/12/12/sunset-geometry/ for a concrete example.

Re: Why is Maxwell's theory so hard to understand? (2007) [pdf]

#106
post #14

E&M is far from "simple". It contains special relativity, for starters. Also it is incompatible with thermodynamics: solving this problem is why Planck invented quantum mechanics. Also point charges have infinite energy: this problem leads to renormalization theory. Also it introduces gauge invariance, an essential but complex part of all modern theories. And lastly, the mathematics of E&M is a big step up from Newto…

[deleted]

Re: Why is Maxwell's theory so hard to understand? (2007) [pdf]

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me, I've been meaning to read this [0] blog post for a while now. (See also the HN discussion [1].) My clueless intuition tells me its points may be analogous to your linked document. (It mentions Heaviside, at least.) [0] https://www.gamedev.net/articles/programming/math-and-physic... [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18365433

Perhaps start with https://www.shapeoperator.com/2016/12/12/sunset-geometry/ for a concrete example.

Looks good, thanks.

Re: Why is Maxwell's theory so hard to understand? (2007) [pdf]

#108
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If LIGO confirmed "aether", then the measurements in the perpendicular arms would vary depending upon time (orientation of Earth in rotation, orientation of Earth around Sun, etc.). As far as I know, they very much do NOT vary--to an absolutely amazing precision. As far as I can tell, if the "aether" existed and we could detect it, we basically would have no hope of detecting gravitational waves. > Naively, spacetime…

But the arms are predicted to vary in those cases by the same theory that LIGO is confirming: our rotation causes frame dragging, and there's some weird Sun-Earth orbital relativistic effects as well, right? I know the Sun-Jupiter orbit produces a large portion of the estimated 5,000 watts of gravitational emissions given off by our solar system. My mental model of this is that it perturbs the aether ("spacetime") th…

> My mental model of this is that it perturbs the aether ("spacetime") through which it travels, radiating waves which carry energy out of the system. Is there a different one?

Yes, and I'll get to that in my third last paragraph below.

Two isolated compact objects in mutual orbit generate a spacetime-filling "tumbling barbell" dynamical metric (as opposed to static or stationary; the two weights on the ends of the notional bar eventually collide), and gravitational radiation is simply a piece of the dynamical spacetime.

Let's slice the spacetime into spacelike hypervolumes indexed by time, and call our sources B and b, and our observer O.

Let's take two times, t_| and t_-. Pipes or hyphens are the not-really-there bar of the barbell connecting the weighted ends; in the schematic below - and | have essentially identical spatial length.

t_-:

  B---b                         O
t_|:

    B
    |
    |                           O
    |
    b
In a full 3+1 formalism of General Relativity we'd calculate the geodesics generated by B and b. More on that later. However, since O is weakly stressed and moving very slowly compared to c, and B and b are moving slowly with respect to c, we are firmly in the weak field limit and can linearize [1].

In effect we can think pretty Newtonian: what attractive force does O feel? If O is a planet with its equator is on the extended line of the barbell at t_- then observers in the upper hemisphere will measure a gravitational attraction pointing equator-wards. Conversely, at t_| the same observers will measure a gravitational attraction pointing away from the equator.

Since Bb is tumbling (suppose it's clockwise about the middle hyphen or vertical bar in this case), the attraction sweeps equatorwards and anti-equatorwards, and we'll also see the times when the positions of B and b are essentially reversed in the two time-slices above.

The frequency of the changes from anti-equatorwards to equatorwards (in our schematic, that's the maximum stretch/squeeze) is the detection frequency, the periodic change in amplitude depends on how circular or elliptic the tumbling is, the amplitude grows as the orbit decays, and the amplitude itself depends on the masses and the distances among the objects.

Feynman's "sticky bead" [2] visualization is probably helpful here. If we replace our polar observers on O, and O itself, with a long pole (perpendicular to O's equator, which means we are perpendicular to the "bar" at t_-) with a couple of beads able to slide north-and-south, then as we approach t_- we expect the north bead to slide south, and the south bead to slide north. As we approach t_- we expect the north bead to slide north, and the south bead to slide south. The beads oscillate north-and-south matching the Bb orbit. If there is friction between the pole and the beads, heat is generated.

If we make the pole vanish and let the beads sit in space at the same positions they would be on the pole, we can see that their behaviour is simply geodesic; over short timescales the deviation from purely timelike geodesic motion is neglibible (over long timescales they may crash into each other or get drawn into the Bb system, since tumbling barbell metrics are collapsing spacetimes). The geodesics are curved in a patch of local Cartesian coordinates with the origin at the centre of the pole at some moment in time.

In the full GR picture the heat from the "sticky beads" on the pole is because the pole pulls the beads off their geodesics. Moving objects out of free-fall (i.e., off geodesics) requires work. This is a local phenomenon, General Relativity being a local theory.

However, the full GR picture is a bear to work with, and as there are several reasonable choices for slicing the 4-spacetime into 3+1 and as at astronomical distances post-Newtonian corrections are small, linearized gravity is the formalism of choice, and that choice drives vocabulary (and intuitions, especially in experiment design) somewhat. In effect, our BbO schematic system is similar to a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavendish_experiment apparatus.

Finally, "... carry energy out of the system ..." depends on the system. In the full GR theory in our toy model above, the system is the entire spacetime. We could measure an energy at spacelike or lightlike infinity and see that it's constant [3]. However, if we measure in a region of spacetime encircling Bb but not O (or our sticky beads, or freely floating beads) then energy is clearly leaving that region. But what's special about that region, physically? Nothing. General Relativity does its thing, with moving masses generating curvature (which you can represent as perturbations of a static background), and curvature determining geodesic motion versus accelerated motion (which you can represent as moving sources dumping momentum into spacetime, and spacetime dumping momentum into matter, and that's about as close to an aether as you can get, but it is UNLIKE the luminiferous aether in crucial ways [4]).

- --

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linearized_gravity which is where perturbations of a non-dynamical background enter formally

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticky_bead_argument

[3] We can rely on the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peeling_theorem to let us use Bondi mass M_B; cf. http://www2.phys.canterbury.ac.nz/ACGRG5/talks/Scholtz~Marti...

[4] http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/Extras/Einstein_ethe... - pay close attention to the clause after the comma in the second-last sentence there. Einstein's main point is that flat spacetime is simply a special case of a general curved spacetime where the curvature is dominated by the sources (matter) or the absence thereof.

Also, it's important to remember that nobody's splitting up of 4-spacetime into 3+1 space+time is "most right"; in our toy model above we have chosen a particular foliation and have not introduced any pesky relativistic observers. That we can use a background (especially flat spacetime) and perturb against that does not mean the background is physically privileged.

Re: Why is Maxwell's theory so hard to understand? (2007) [pdf]

#109
post #102
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then stop playing with words and say what you mean. Point charges make sense without qualification in EM, that much is true. But that doesn't mean that there is something strange or fishy going on here. You can formulate Lorentz forces using mass distributions and you're fine (it's right there in the next subsection of the wiki). The pathologies don't appear. Of course the resulting equations are non-linear, and that…

I'm not trying to play with words...by EM I mean Maxwell's equations and the Lorentz force law. I think that's the conventional meaning. The point is that these two are taught in an EM class as if it's a single coherent theory that tells you what point charges do. Mass distributions don't solve the issue in a satisfactory way, in my opinion. If you replace a particle with a finite size sphere you've solved the infini…

I would like to respond to your reply at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18846249 and I was going to use among other things the example of an electron in a uniform magnetic field. So I was totally surprised when I read this comment already mentioning

> ... "What happens if I put an electron in a uniform magnetic field?" ...

Either 1) this is pure coincidence (and you are contrasting the difficulty of the 2 electrons compared to the "simpler" electron in a magnetic field), or 2) you are referencing a certain 'issue' or puzzle about the electron in a uniform magnetiic field?

Could you clarify if it is 1) or 2) or something else? and if 2) clarify the puzzling issue regarding the "electron in a unifoorm magnetic field"?

Then I will feel more comfortable answering the other comment you made, so I can clarify my earlier reply to you :)

Re: Why is Maxwell's theory so hard to understand? (2007) [pdf]

#110
post #102
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then stop playing with words and say what you mean. Point charges make sense without qualification in EM, that much is true. But that doesn't mean that there is something strange or fishy going on here. You can formulate Lorentz forces using mass distributions and you're fine (it's right there in the next subsection of the wiki). The pathologies don't appear. Of course the resulting equations are non-linear, and that…

I'm not trying to play with words...by EM I mean Maxwell's equations and the Lorentz force law. I think that's the conventional meaning. The point is that these two are taught in an EM class as if it's a single coherent theory that tells you what point charges do. Mass distributions don't solve the issue in a satisfactory way, in my opinion. If you replace a particle with a finite size sphere you've solved the infini…

If you take a non-relativistic model of your matter content, then the theory becomes non-relativistic. That's trivial. So take a relativistic model for your matter and you have no problem [1]. EM gives you a theory of EM Fields and their interaction with matter. It shouldn't be surprising that EM doesn't give you a theory of matter.

I maintain there is no conceptual problem with EM, the problem is with your electron model which is unphysical. It might seem reasonable to you, but that's because of your intuition to build up matter from point particles, which is only justified by QFT considerations that came almost a century after EM.

[1] A simple matter model often used in GR is dust. I'm sure this would work for EM even better.

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