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Why is Maxwell's theory so hard to understand? (2007) [pdf]

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Re: Why is Maxwell's theory so hard to understand? (2007) [pdf]

#91
post #61
post #14

E&M is far from "simple". It contains special relativity, for starters. Also it is incompatible with thermodynamics: solving this problem is why Planck invented quantum mechanics. Also point charges have infinite energy: this problem leads to renormalization theory. Also it introduces gauge invariance, an essential but complex part of all modern theories. And lastly, the mathematics of E&M is a big step up from Newto…

E&M is simple in the sense that the equations that govern the relationship between the charge distribution and the electromagnetic field are quite simple. And the equations governing how charges move in an electromagnetic field are quite simple. I think this is what Dyson has in mind. Understanding the implications and limitations of those equations is not simple at all. An even more blatant difficulty with E&M, rela…

> Given the trajectories of charges it will tell you what the electromagnetic field will be, and given the electromagnetic field it will tell you how charges will move. Unfortunately, these two parts of the theory seem to be incompatible, and the theory will not tell you how fields + charges will evolve in time.

The Problem is not coupling charged matter fields to the EM field. You get a well defined set of coupled and (now) non-linear PDEs. The problems arise when you try to model point charges. Then the theory is plagued by infinities that originate in the infinite charge and current densities.

The infinities in QED are actually far less problematic than those in the classic theory. They just seem to be more problematic because you cant (approximately) ignore the backreaction of EM and matter fields.

Re: Why is Maxwell's theory so hard to understand? (2007) [pdf]

#92
post #90
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the Lorentz force does though. And that follows from energy conservation and the Maxwell equations, e.g.: https://physics.stackexchange.com/a/77028 So that's not really terribly deep or even true.

So what are the equations for those two charges?

For any number of particles, the equation for each of them is this one here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covariant_formulation_of_class...

Edit: Coupled differential equations.

If I have an equation for x in terms of y, and one for y in terms of x, then in total I have a set of equations for x and y.

e.g.:

  dx/dt = y
  dy/dt = -x
then the solution is

  x = C e^(i t)
  y = i C e^(i t)
with C a constant determined by the initial conditions. Nothing mysterious.

Re: Why is Maxwell's theory so hard to understand? (2007) [pdf]

#93
"The phrase “Another theory of electricity which I prefer” seems deliberately intended to obscure the fact that this was his own theory."

To me, this just sounds like typical British understatement, which I'm sure the audience at the time would have understood.

Re: Why is Maxwell's theory so hard to understand? (2007) [pdf]

#94
post #92
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what are the equations for those two charges?

For any number of particles, the equation for each of them is this one here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covariant_formulation_of_class... Edit: Coupled differential equations. If I have an equation for x in terms of y, and one for y in terms of x, then in total I have a set of equations for x and y. e.g.: dx/dt = y dy/dt = -x then the solution is x = C e^(i t) y = i C e^(i t) with C a constant determined by the in…

I understand differential equations ;-)

That page describes Maxwell's equations and the Lorentz force law. That a naive approach cannot work can be seen by considering the following example. Take one charge initially at rest with huge mass, and another light charge orbiting around it. According to Lorentz law it will orbit in a circle for the right initial conditions. However, then according to Maxwell's equations it will radiate electromagnetic waves, violating energy conservation. The field of the accelerated charge will affect the charge itself, but this is not easy to take into account, because that field is infinite at the location of the charge.

Re: Why is Maxwell's theory so hard to understand? (2007) [pdf]

#95
post #53
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you say Apple, whose main business was an extensive traxk record in creating, promoting, and selling next generation technology, that their major investment in a new field was blind speculation? In contrast to Microsoft whose business was providing stable solutions and extracting monopoly rents.

Not sure I understand your point. Mine was that in science or business we are often held back from understanding by the limitations of our models, even when we ourselves are the inventors. I thought I used an example well known to HN to make the point. Apple’s stated hope was to eventually have 1% of the market (and they didn’t originally plan for an App Store). Like Maxwell, they didn’t know they had a blockbuster.…

an example well known to HN

I think the issue is that example doesn't seem to be true.. Jobs said at the time of launch that it was a revolutionary and magical product which was five years ahead of everyone else and would change everything. And the hope wasn't to have 1% eventually, but by the end of 2008.

Re: Why is Maxwell's theory so hard to understand? (2007) [pdf]

#96
post #56
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maxwell’s works all assume an ether so it’s not really true to state that the equations don’t need one.

The aether is not required, assumed by or contained in the equations. Its existence was a physical hypothesis which was discarded after Einstein's work on special relativity and a multitude of related experiments.

Funny that Maxwell has an entire chapter named after him in the history of the ether [1]

[1] https://archive.org/details/historyoftheorie00whitrich/page/...

Re: Why is Maxwell's theory so hard to understand? (2007) [pdf]

#97
post #94
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For any number of particles, the equation for each of them is this one here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covariant_formulation_of_class... Edit: Coupled differential equations. If I have an equation for x in terms of y, and one for y in terms of x, then in total I have a set of equations for x and y. e.g.: dx/dt = y dy/dt = -x then the solution is x = C e^(i t) y = i C e^(i t) with C a constant determined by the in…

I understand differential equations ;-) That page describes Maxwell's equations and the Lorentz force law. That a naive approach cannot work can be seen by considering the following example. Take one charge initially at rest with huge mass, and another light charge orbiting around it. According to Lorentz law it will orbit in a circle for the right initial conditions. However, then according to Maxwell's equations it…

define radiate? if you calculate the poynting vector you see energy is not really leaving the system in this case, although there certainly is electromagnetic oscillation/rotation/circulation, so there is no energy violation.

1) If we consider the ground state of a system this behaves as expected quantum mechanically: there is motion in the ground state but no energy leaves the system! Why hold Maxwell equations to a perhaps higher or perhaps falser standard than we hold quantum mechanics??

2) But if a system is not in its ground state we do expect (by the observation that excited molecules emit light) this oscillation/rotation of the electromagnetic field to radiate away energy that leaves the system. (Actually the simplest, most widely taught formulations of quantum mechanics, also don't predict decay of an excited energy state: The eigenstates of energy are valid solutions, and the solutions rotate in the complex plane indefinitely, so here it is both deterministic solutions to Maxwell Equations and Introductory QM predicting incorrectly no decay, with the important difference that Introductory QM can already calculate the energy spectrum, and hence absorption and emission spectrum, glossing over the fact that the transition is not in fact yet predicted)

3) As I said, I am willing to agree to calling Maxwell's equatins schizophrenic, but not because of their coupled equations nature, but because of its indeterministic nature (again a similarity with quantum mechanics!). If we subdivide the worldline of each charge's motion into individual infinitessimmal but continuous motion events, then we can spend a total of one Lienard Wiechert potentials (say 1.0 delayed + 0 advanced, the other way around, 0.7 delayed and 0.3 advanced, or -10.4 delayed and +11.4 advanced, etc!) on each such event individually, i.e. we can have this division that sums to 1 depend on both particle and time, as long as the total applied force in the past and future respect are compatible with the trajectory of the particle... this is quite schizophrenic indeed!

I since long suspect Maxwells Equations to contain quantum mechanical behaviour that has not been explored yet.

EDIT: There are roughly speaking 2 kinds of physicists/students: 1) those who either deny, ignore, gloss over this indeterminacy problem, or point at a pseudo-contradiction, and ignore they are holding Maxwell equations to a higher standard than Introductory QM and "just move on to QM, btw shut up and calculate!" 2) those who recognize explicitly or implicitly this schizophrenia (of the second indeterminacy kind, not the coupledness kind) and have attempted various approaches or formulations to rigorously enumerate/solve for all mathematically valid (self-consistent) histories/trajectories/solutions of Maxwell's equations. Einstein was famously trying to resolve this issue (among others) for the rest of his life, Feynmann worried about it (you can read this between the lines in his Absorber Theory), and so on. I believe many of those approaches and attempts will turn out to be different but equivalent perspectives, once the problem of solving for all self-consistent histories of ME's with given initial conditions has been solved...

I obviously belong to group 2) and given your dissatisfaction, I presume you too belong to group 2). However I believe that the issue is not the maxwell equation's themselves, but our lack of mathematics to solve for all self-consistent histories... Those who do not express dissatisfaction at the lack of complete enumeration of solutions to this insidious/schizophrenic/indeterminacy of ME, or just move on to QM belong to camp 1). There is no shame in that as long as they don't ridicule/demotivate those of us trying to bridge (semi-)classical physics with quantum mechanics... and make the analogies Dyson points out between Maxwell Equations and QM (the first and second layer, etc) more complete.

Perhaps this problem has already been resolved between Maxwell's publication of the ME's, and today. Perhaps the solution is present in the literature, but with very low uptake because most people are in camp 1). Perhaps the person who solved the issue was too modest in describing the significance of what he has concluded, and we will read about it in 70 years...

Re: Why is Maxwell's theory so hard to understand? (2007) [pdf]

#98
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand differential equations ;-) That page describes Maxwell's equations and the Lorentz force law. That a naive approach cannot work can be seen by considering the following example. Take one charge initially at rest with huge mass, and another light charge orbiting around it. According to Lorentz law it will orbit in a circle for the right initial conditions. However, then according to Maxwell's equations it…

define radiate? if you calculate the poynting vector you see energy is not really leaving the system in this case, although there certainly is electromagnetic oscillation/rotation/circulation, so there is no energy violation. 1) If we consider the ground state of a system this behaves as expected quantum mechanically: there is motion in the ground state but no energy leaves the system! Why hold Maxwell equations to a…

> if you calculate the poynting vector you see energy is not really leaving the system in this case

Isn't there? That wasn't what I learned. If you set the light charge in motion around the heavy charge, then space will fill with radiation that has energy. No?

> As I said, I am willing to agree to calling Maxwell's equatins schizophrenic, but not because of their coupled equations nature, but because of its indeterministic nature

Well, if you don't set a boundary condition then the solution isn't determined. So in some sense that's obviously demanding too much. Math can't tell you what a differential equation will do if you don't give it boundary conditions. The retarded/advanced potentials are Green's functions, and Green's functions depend on boundary conditions.

The problem I'm talking about is in addition to this problem. If you somehow decided that you're only using the purely retarded potential, then you could calculate the EM field given the trajectories of the charges, but that still doesn't tell you how charges move. If you decide that a charge is affected by the entire EM field including its own field then you run into infinities, and if you decide that a charge is affected only by the combined field from all other charges in the universe then you run into the issue that I mentioned above. Simple ways to address the problem fail, e.g. if you replace the charges by a sphere with smeared out charge, then the solution is no longer relativistically invariant because rigid spheres aren't.

> I since long suspect Maxwells Equations to contain quantum mechanical behaviour that has not been explored yet.

I don't know about unexplored, but if I recall correctly, Schrodinger was highly influenced by Maxwell's equations.

Basically, he noted the correspondence between ray optics (Fermat's least time principle) and classical mechanics (least action principle). Maxwell's equations are the wave version of ray optics, so he asked himself whether there is a wave version of mechanics. In other words, ray optics is to classical mechanics as Maxwell's equations are to what? So there's not just an analogy between Maxwell's equations and QM, but that's actually partially how QM came to be in the first place! Maybe you could even claim that Maxwell's equations should be classified as quantum physics not classical physics. After all, if the paradoxical nature of the double slit experiment is called quantum physics then surely Maxwell's equations are quantum physics because they correctly predict the result, as opposed to ray optics which does not. Maxwell's equations are a quantum theory of a single photon, ray optics are the classical theory of a single photon.

Re: Why is Maxwell's theory so hard to understand? (2007) [pdf]

#99
post #94
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For any number of particles, the equation for each of them is this one here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covariant_formulation_of_class... Edit: Coupled differential equations. If I have an equation for x in terms of y, and one for y in terms of x, then in total I have a set of equations for x and y. e.g.: dx/dt = y dy/dt = -x then the solution is x = C e^(i t) y = i C e^(i t) with C a constant determined by the in…

I understand differential equations ;-) That page describes Maxwell's equations and the Lorentz force law. That a naive approach cannot work can be seen by considering the following example. Take one charge initially at rest with huge mass, and another light charge orbiting around it. According to Lorentz law it will orbit in a circle for the right initial conditions. However, then according to Maxwell's equations it…

Then stop playing with words and say what you mean.

Point charges make sense without qualification in EM, that much is true.

But that doesn't mean that there is something strange or fishy going on here. You can formulate Lorentz forces using mass distributions and you're fine (it's right there in the next subsection of the wiki). The pathologies don't appear. Of course the resulting equations are non-linear, and that is the origin of the failure of point sources to make sense.

If you then try to recover point sources by taking a limit, the details of the assumptions you make matter a great deal [1]. For a very easy example, your point source might have a dipole.

This problem is kind of well known and studied in the General Relativity literature where the non-linearity of the field equations forces you to confront similar type of problems already when trying to derive geodesic motion [2].

I suspect all this is familiar to you. I would phrase the conclusion as such: The Newtonian idea of focusing exclusively on the motion of the centre of mass, which reflects the influence of distributed forces on a rigid body, breaks down in any relativistic theory. This is simply because the notion of a rigid body breaks down. As such the point mass, which was a conceptual cornerstone of Newtonian mechanics, along with the notion of a force acting on it, are relegated to a technical tool useful only when non-linearities are neglected.

[1] https://arxiv.org/abs/0905.2391

When googling for this paper I found a nice set of slides by Wald about this whole business: http://www.math.utk.edu/~fernando/barrett/bwald1.pdf

[2] https://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0309074

Re: Why is Maxwell's theory so hard to understand? (2007) [pdf]

#100
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If LIGO confirmed "aether", then the measurements in the perpendicular arms would vary depending upon time (orientation of Earth in rotation, orientation of Earth around Sun, etc.). As far as I know, they very much do NOT vary--to an absolutely amazing precision. As far as I can tell, if the "aether" existed and we could detect it, we basically would have no hope of detecting gravitational waves. > Naively, spacetime…

But the arms are predicted to vary in those cases by the same theory that LIGO is confirming: our rotation causes frame dragging, and there's some weird Sun-Earth orbital relativistic effects as well, right? I know the Sun-Jupiter orbit produces a large portion of the estimated 5,000 watts of gravitational emissions given off by our solar system. My mental model of this is that it perturbs the aether ("spacetime") th…

By aether, do you mean an underlying medium that allows forces to be propagated? I guess that using that definition, there is an 'aether'.

The difference with the rejected concept of aether is that this "aether" is deformable by gravity, whereas the rejected one is not.

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