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Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

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Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#191

Post by danielcarver »

solidsnack9000 wrote: post #184
taurath wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea that AA reinforces the "moral failing" aspect of addiction seems contrary to everything I've ever read, heard, or seen in regards to AA. The entire insistence on the belief in a higher power, along with insistence that one is "powerless over your addiction" is intrinsically talking about a moral failing, and more specifically adherence to a christian-worldview where all from birth are morally failed. They…

The entire insistence on the belief in a higher power, along with insistence that one is "powerless over your addiction" is intrinsically talking about a moral failing, and more specifically adherence to a christian-worldview where all from birth are morally failed. Does belief in a higher power constitute being morally failed? Is it even specifically Judeo-Christian? Being "powerless over your addiction" has more to…

AA absolutely is about Christianity, it is an offshoot of Christianity and a Christian organization.

The emphasis on public self-flagellation and self-humiliation via drunkalogs and self labeling as “alcoholics” aka sinners, the insistence on the nonsensical idea of “personal powerlessness,” the dogmatic suggesting of a book (the AA big book) written by Christian religious freaks as if it’s the Bible...

AA quite literally IS Christianity. It’s just that they use the generic label “God” rather than the more specific label of “Jesus Christ.”

It’s not like they allow polytheism, lol. They are specifically a monotheistic group religion, based on the idea of a singular MALE “higher power.” AA is Christianity. Saying otherwise reveals you either don’t know much about AA, or you don’t know much about Christianity. They are functionally the same.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#192

Post by danielcarver »

hevi_jos wrote: post #20
walrus01 wrote: post #9

The christian part is a barrier for atheists and agnostics that would otherwise be OK with participating in Alcoholics Anonymous. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Alcoholics_Anonymou...

I don't know why. One of the founders of AA was atheist. He just realized that acting like a bigger entity exist helped him, so he started using it as a tool. This does not mean that he really believed that. I had seen several atheist and agnostics go to AA without any problems. When you have a serious problem like this that makes you loose your wife, your kids, your job, you try anything that could get you out. When…

You’re incorrect, neither founder of AA was an atheist, they were both hardcore Christians.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#193

Post by drdeadringer »

BeetleB wrote: post #131
Quequau wrote: post #11

After years and years of struggling with alcoholism and AA, I got sober with naltrexone using the "Sinclair Method". I followed the treatment plan for a few weeks and at the end quitting drinking was easy and obvious. That was just over ten years ago and I haven't had a drink or gone to any meetings since. I'm only one person and I'm fully aware that the plural of anecdote isn't data. However, the experience was so d…

>However, the experience was so drama, and more importantly self-loathing, free and so effective, I remember reading a while ago that this is the main problem with 12 step programs. Not that they don't work (they often do), but the manner in which failure is viewed. With typical medical and therapy treatments, if one treatment (psychological or chemical) is not working, the attitude of the doctor is to consider other…

> The notion that the 12 step program isn't for everyone is usually absent

I lament the notion that the 12-step program is the be-all end-all for curing all addictions for everybody everywhere. It is not. It should stop being sold as such. Yes, it is helpful for many; it is also not helpful for many others.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#194

Post by drdeadringer »

coleifer wrote: post #123
mgamache wrote: post #60

If you consider addiction as a psychological and physical dependence on a chemical what healthcare professional would design a program like AA? Seven of the 12 steps involve God. It also reinforces the 'moral failure' stigma attached to the person. You drink too much for a reason, not because you are a bad person. It's likely due to genetic and environmental factors. ohh and you can die from withdrawal (unlike most o…

> You drink too much for a reason I don't think that's right. More than anywhere else, it seems like on HN there's an idea of the infallibility of human rationality. Would anyone in their right mind a) shoot dirty dope filtered through a cigarette butt, b) gamble themselves into debt with the mafia, c) overeat to the point they can't leave the house, d) play videogames compulsively for days on end, etc?

I would like to know if there is anybody on Hacker News who does anything "in irrationality" as you describe.

Over work? Over program? Over game similar to your "d)"? Over technology -- e.g. databases and search at work whilst Drones & Arduino at home?

When is any of this "addiction"? What if you replaced "Arduino" with "Alcohol"? What if you looked at "databases" and asked "is this interfering with my normal life"?

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#195

Post by drdeadringer »

derefr wrote: post #113
mgamache wrote: post #60

If you consider addiction as a psychological and physical dependence on a chemical what healthcare professional would design a program like AA? Seven of the 12 steps involve God. It also reinforces the 'moral failure' stigma attached to the person. You drink too much for a reason, not because you are a bad person. It's likely due to genetic and environmental factors. ohh and you can die from withdrawal (unlike most o…

The AA steps were constructed in a culturally-Christian environment, for people who are also culturally-Christian, even if they’re atheists. (I.e., they are people who were taught Christian messages and then maybe rejected them, and who also have a mostly-Christian community around them.) Thus, they have to be read through this lens. Basically, if you want to “translate” the AA steps for the modern era where things a…

How do you feel and what do you think about Lilith Starr's opinion and experience that a religion at-least partially focused on self responsibility was more helpful on achieving sobriety than AA?

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#196

Post by drdeadringer »

randomacct3847 wrote: post #17

It only hit me in the past few months how ingrained alcohol/drinking culture is in adult lives. It’s absolutely everywhere (ads, sports events, festivals, workplace, nightlife, social events). It’s actually crazy how lightly we treat this addictive, toxic substance that we joke about despite how many people it kills every year and harms directly and indirectly. At some point I was unknowingly drinking 4-5 times a wee…

> how ingrained alcohol/drinking culture is in adult lives

I agree.

About a month ago I went to a social event where we would be doing XYZ. We finished our task and trundled for lunch; "when is the bar going to be open" was a common lament. All I wanted was to buy and eat pizza; which I did, but others were so very happy when the bartender showed up.

And this was lunch time. "Noon", for example. Martinis were wanted. I just wanted pizza.

It all worked out. But it was worth mentioning.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#197

Post by wuliwong »

ggchappell wrote: post #172
Quequau wrote: post #11

After years and years of struggling with alcoholism and AA, I got sober with naltrexone using the "Sinclair Method". I followed the treatment plan for a few weeks and at the end quitting drinking was easy and obvious. That was just over ten years ago and I haven't had a drink or gone to any meetings since. I'm only one person and I'm fully aware that the plural of anecdote isn't data. However, the experience was so d…

> ... I can't help but feel bitter towards the proponents of AA who insist on it being a monopoly... especially those in positions of power in the criminal justice or public health systems .... Not an alcoholic, but I had extended discussions with a number of AA members some years ago. And I found that many of them also felt pretty negatively about the involvement of the justice system with AA. What happens (they sai…

Agreed. AA has a tradition of "attraction rather than promotion" but AA cannot control what those outside of AA do.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#198

Post by wuliwong »

ergothus wrote: post #66
jcims wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First congrats on finding something that works for you and making it stick! From that perspective, I can see why you would not like folks that insist on AA being a monopoly, but I'm curious about that position. I've seen a lot of people that hate AA and a lot of people that think it saved their lives, but I've never seen anyone say that AA must be the only way to sobriety. What's the angle?

I can't speak from first hand experience or actual knowledge, but I've seen several articles over the years about AA being the only US court approved treatment, leaving some people with the choice of accepting only AA or jail. Atheists in particular have commented on this, but also people that take issues with certain other AA stances (such as "you will forever be an alcoholic"). I have no idea if this was federal, s…

>you will forever be an alcoholic

I believe that this is the current medical understand of alcoholism as well.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#199

Post by wuliwong »

rajacombinator wrote: post #154
jcims wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First congrats on finding something that works for you and making it stick! From that perspective, I can see why you would not like folks that insist on AA being a monopoly, but I'm curious about that position. I've seen a lot of people that hate AA and a lot of people that think it saved their lives, but I've never seen anyone say that AA must be the only way to sobriety. What's the angle?

You may have encountered these people casually in passing but not read anything from AA proponents. Basically every AA proponent I’ve ever read from tows the party line that it is the only viable treatment. Many of them disparage and suppress alternatives like the Sinclair method.

This is completely contrary to anything officially published by Alcoholics Anonymous. Possibly "proponents" have their own opinions but AA itself specifically states in its that it does not have a monopoly on recovery from alcoholism.

http://www.aagrapevine.org/node/34635

That's one example. It is also in the main text.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#200

Post by wuliwong »

baragiola wrote: post #110
Quequau wrote: post #11

After years and years of struggling with alcoholism and AA, I got sober with naltrexone using the "Sinclair Method". I followed the treatment plan for a few weeks and at the end quitting drinking was easy and obvious. That was just over ten years ago and I haven't had a drink or gone to any meetings since. I'm only one person and I'm fully aware that the plural of anecdote isn't data. However, the experience was so d…

Wouldn't you consider beating an addiction to actually being able to take one or two drinks and leaving it at there? In other words, if you're constantly counting the days without a drink and struggle with yourself to not drink, are you really "cured" from the addiction?

>Wouldn't you consider beating an addiction to actually being able to take one or two drinks and leaving it at there?

Sure.

>In other words, if you're constantly counting the days without a drink and struggle with yourself to not drink, are you really "cured" from the addiction?

This is an entirely different statement from your first point and a mischaracterization of recovery.

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