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Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

abc.net.au

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Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#11

Post by Quequau »

After years and years of struggling with alcoholism and AA, I got sober with naltrexone using the "Sinclair Method". I followed the treatment plan for a few weeks and at the end quitting drinking was easy and obvious. That was just over ten years ago and I haven't had a drink or gone to any meetings since.

I'm only one person and I'm fully aware that the plural of anecdote isn't data. However, the experience was so drama, and more importantly self-loathing, free and so effective, that I can't help but feel bitter towards the proponents of AA who insist on it being a monopoly... especially those in positions of power in the criminal justice or public health systems because from my perspective it's a malicious and vindictive stance.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#12

Post by pgt »

It seems plausible that the complex set of control systems that govern our survival became intimately intertwined with various alkaloids over a few million years, "outsourcing" production of raw building blocks to plants. One example is the way in which sulforaphane from broccoli (via glucosinolate glucoraphanin) reduces symptoms of autism in the presence of myrosinase (present in mustard). [^1]

Specifically, on the topic of addiction: "Ibogaine-treated rodents exhibit attenuated opioid withdrawal symptoms, and diminished self-administration of a variety of drugs of abuse, including opioids, cocaine, nicotine and alcohol. Anecdotal evidence suggests that ibogaine is also anti-addictive in humans." [^2]

Meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials show that a single dose of LSD had a beneficial effect on alcohol misuse (OR, 1.95, 95% CI, p=0.0003). [^3]

As we get better at modelling our own bodies, hopefully we can start to selectively replace or suppress some of our out-dated control systems to reduce suffering and increase efficiency while retaining our survivability.

Citations:

- [^1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5672987/ - [^2]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4382526/ - [^3]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22406913

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#13

Post by [deleted] »

walrus01 wrote: post #10
max76 wrote: post #5

I want to see data driven novel approaches to addiction management. The 12-step model has dismal success rates [0]. Virtually all of the novel programs and facilities either do not report a success rate or their reported rate is highly suspicious. There are some exceptions [1]. The global addiction market is $4 billion and growing [2]. Any company working in the addiction space should keep accurate records of their s…

> Any company working in the addiction space should keep accurate records of their success rate and push to improve that rate Collecting metrics on lack of relapse from alcoholics and drug addicts seems like a tough task, since once a person becomes an addict (as defined by the DSM-V), this is a population that is often either less than truthful about the severity of their addiction problem, measures their consumptio…

[deleted]

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#14

Post by chasil »

Quequau wrote: post #11

After years and years of struggling with alcoholism and AA, I got sober with naltrexone using the "Sinclair Method". I followed the treatment plan for a few weeks and at the end quitting drinking was easy and obvious. That was just over ten years ago and I haven't had a drink or gone to any meetings since. I'm only one person and I'm fully aware that the plural of anecdote isn't data. However, the experience was so d…

Naltrexone/nalmefene works with 85% of the population, while 15% do not respond because of genetic disposition.

Of the 85% who do respond, 75% are successful in what they are attempting.

Proponents advise you to take it for the rest of your life. Naltrexone is not costly. This is your decision.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#15

Post by sedatk »

chasil wrote: post #14
Quequau wrote: post #11

After years and years of struggling with alcoholism and AA, I got sober with naltrexone using the "Sinclair Method". I followed the treatment plan for a few weeks and at the end quitting drinking was easy and obvious. That was just over ten years ago and I haven't had a drink or gone to any meetings since. I'm only one person and I'm fully aware that the plural of anecdote isn't data. However, the experience was so d…

Naltrexone/nalmefene works with 85% of the population, while 15% do not respond because of genetic disposition. Of the 85% who do respond, 75% are successful in what they are attempting. Proponents advise you to take it for the rest of your life. Naltrexone is not costly. This is your decision.

or you know, don’t take medical advice from random people on the internet.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#16

Post by aaron695 »

Lol you are going to trust your LIFE to a "sobriety start-ups"

The pure fact it's a start-up should tip you off there's going to be no evidence it works.

Good luck with that.

The whole article is junk.

All treatments have huge failure rates, above 90%, including Naltrexone and AA and rehab and shrinks etc

Chose / keep looking until you find the one that works for you.

The whole X doesn't work is bullshit, none "work" well, it's a complicated topic.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#17

Post by randomacct3847 »

It only hit me in the past few months how ingrained alcohol/drinking culture is in adult lives. It’s absolutely everywhere (ads, sports events, festivals, workplace, nightlife, social events). It’s actually crazy how lightly we treat this addictive, toxic substance that we joke about despite how many people it kills every year and harms directly and indirectly. At some point I was unknowingly drinking 4-5 times a week and thinking that was normal or OK. I’ve mostly just stopped and will only allow myself 1-2 drinks every few months on a vacation or social event with friends.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#18

Post by Quequau »

chasil wrote: post #14
Quequau wrote: post #11

After years and years of struggling with alcoholism and AA, I got sober with naltrexone using the "Sinclair Method". I followed the treatment plan for a few weeks and at the end quitting drinking was easy and obvious. That was just over ten years ago and I haven't had a drink or gone to any meetings since. I'm only one person and I'm fully aware that the plural of anecdote isn't data. However, the experience was so d…

Naltrexone/nalmefene works with 85% of the population, while 15% do not respond because of genetic disposition. Of the 85% who do respond, 75% are successful in what they are attempting. Proponents advise you to take it for the rest of your life. Naltrexone is not costly. This is your decision.

I quit taking it when I quit drinking. I literally never finished the second box of tablets.

What you are referring to are those who for whatever reason wish to continue drinking in moderation.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#19

Post by virgilp »

randomacct3847 wrote: post #17

It only hit me in the past few months how ingrained alcohol/drinking culture is in adult lives. It’s absolutely everywhere (ads, sports events, festivals, workplace, nightlife, social events). It’s actually crazy how lightly we treat this addictive, toxic substance that we joke about despite how many people it kills every year and harms directly and indirectly. At some point I was unknowingly drinking 4-5 times a wee…

Depends on the quantity I guess, but... why is drinking 4-5 times a week not ok? Something like a glass of wine or a small beer should be fine, right? In some countries (e.g. France) it's a wide-spread habit to drink a glass of wine at lunch, and it doesn't seem to harm public health.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#20

Post by hevi_jos »

walrus01 wrote: post #9

The christian part is a barrier for atheists and agnostics that would otherwise be OK with participating in Alcoholics Anonymous. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Alcoholics_Anonymou...

I don't know why. One of the founders of AA was atheist. He just realized that acting like a bigger entity exist helped him, so he started using it as a tool.

This does not mean that he really believed that.

I had seen several atheist and agnostics go to AA without any problems. When you have a serious problem like this that makes you loose your wife, your kids, your job, you try anything that could get you out.

When you are desperate you try anything, anything, including visiting shamans.

From my point of view the people that have problems with AA will be the hyper rational people that could not test something without knowing why they are doing that.

The problem is that when you are under the influence of drugs, your mind is not really free to think, but is strongly biased(cognition bias), so what looks from inside like common sense is not objectively. You can rationalize anything.

What the AA method does is you accepting that the solution is outside you, accepting external influence without judging. This is a necessary step, at least while the influence is very strong.

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