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Chromium blacklists Nouveau

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Re: Chromium blacklists Nouveau

#141

Post by steve19 »

ajross wrote: post #116
lultimouomo wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Unfortunately we don't have the resources to test every variation of every GPU/driver combination on linux So Google doesn't have the resources to test the default driver on the most widespread linux distribution for one of the two most widespread GPU producers in the market.

Not for a free product, no. It's not our place to decide for Google what they want to do. If we want our open source software to work we should make it work. You can rebuild chromium to change the blacklist, or just use the command line to tell it to ignore the blacklist. It's not like Google doesn't provide options. And in any case the reason nouveau sucks (and yes, folks, nouveau sucks) isn't Google's fault to begi…

It's free in the sense you don't pay for it with money, but considering how much Google pays apple to use Google as the default search engine, I would say the Google Browser is a big money maker.

Re: Chromium blacklists Nouveau

#142

Post by techntoke »

canttestthis wrote: post #133
techntoke wrote: post #132

This is another reason why we shouldn't let current web browsers decide the future of the web... which to them will become a proprietary black box of slow JavaScript spyware and horrid markup languages.

> which to them will become a proprietary black box of slow JavaScript spyware and horrid markup languages Did you read the bug report?

I didn't see anything about a black box, except that users had reported issues and they didn't feel that they could investigate them because there were to many variances in Linux distros.

Re: Chromium blacklists Nouveau

#143

Post by PhasmaFelis »

jlarocco wrote: post #125
geofft wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Chrome is empirically quite user friendly - it's not installed by default anywhere and people choose to use it. It is true that Chrome isn't particularly power -user friendly for certain use cases, but that's different. Also, if you look at the bug report, it's quite clear they spent a lot of time trying to make nouveau work.

There's more to being user friendly than having a dumbed down UI and being technically correct. Helping corporations spy on users is definitely not user friendly, and Chrome is by far the worst offender there. Saying, "nobody cares," because they're ignorant that it's going on is no excuse, either.

User-friendliness is usually understood as being about usability and interface design. Spyware-riddled software may be shitty, and that should be called out, but it's orthogonal to user-friendliness.

Edit: You seem to disagree. Google "user-friendly" and realize that I'm not defending Chrome.

Re: Chromium blacklists Nouveau

#144

Post by techntoke »

StavrosK wrote: post #76
moonbug wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nvidia also does an excellent job of supporting linux. It's just not open source.

I don't know, I upgraded to 18.10 and my XPS's brightness control doesn't work. The Prime switchy thing can't change cards without a reboot, and if the screen goes to sleep between switching cards and rebooting, it never comes up again. Actually, with 18.10, it never comes up again anyway. I have a whole host of issues with nVidia cards, my next card is going to be AMD.

Try Arch with the 4.20 kernel.

Re: Chromium blacklists Nouveau

#145

Post by Klathmon »

techntoke wrote: post #130
jenscow wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're "rewarding" the driver that works .

It works fine on Arch. I'm pretty sure the issue is more to do with Ubuntu's packaging. For them to disable it everywhere due to an issue with Ubuntu makes no sense. Besides, Ubuntu packages old software several releases behind stable.

If you are willing you could maybe mention that with some more info about your setup in the bug at [1].

Chrome has the capability of adding all kinds of qualifiers to the blacklist, including explicit exceptions to the rules for a ton of things as well.

If enough people can show that some subset of Nouveau users are stable it can be safely enabled for them.

[1] https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=876523

Re: Chromium blacklists Nouveau

#146

Post by belorn »

larkeith wrote: post #96

> One idea is to flip GL_VENDOR to some random string if chromium is running. What? Don't do this - never do this. Regardless of whether or not you agree with Chromium's decision, it is their decision to make as the project maintainers; trying to trick the software with falsified data is overstepping your bounds, and both corrodes trust in your driver and leads to whitelists. I thought we had moved past the days of f…

What we have is two side accusing the other of overstepping their bounds. Chromium making decision about drivers which normally is the domain of the operative system, and the driver making decision of what kind of systems the browser will support.

The more rational behavior is for chromium to let the operative system decide what software and drivers they want to use, and do what they want with bugs from operative systems that they don't want to support.

Whitelists won't work since all that will happen then is that project will do what Internet explorer did, ie call it self "compatible" and use the GL_VENDOR string of that compatible driver.

Re: Chromium blacklists Nouveau

#147

Post by MrRadar »

gnarbarian wrote: post #82
emersion wrote: post #31

Nouveau are doing their best to reverse-engineer cards. NVIDIA doesn't help at all, not providing any docs and not interacting with the rest of the community. On the other hand, Intel and AMD have high-quality drivers and are part of the open-source community.

Ya. It's too bad their hardware isn't more competitive. I am definitely rooting for AMD to wow us next generation like they did in the CPU market. Things are getting far better for OSS you drivers. If you wanted any 3d acceleration in the past your only choice was the proprietary Nvidia driver or a broken proprietary ATI driver. (The ATI windows drivers were pretty buggy too during this period). Back then the proprie…

> I am definitely rooting for AMD to wow us next generation like they did in the CPU market.

Don't set your expectations too high. Their next generation of consumer graphics cards, rumored to be announced at CES next week, are reportedly still going to be based on a new revision of their current GCN architecture (which originally debuted in 2011 and is very much showing its age these days). Rumored performance for the "high-end" model will be somewhere around the GTX 1080 or RTX 2070 (though reportedly at a much lower price compared to either of those cards).

If you're waiting for them to produce an all-new GPU architecture the rumors are that they are working on one to be launched in the 2020-2021 timeframe. That's also when Intel is rumored to be preparing to launch their own dedicated GPUs so hopefully we will be going from 0 properly high-end GPUs with open-source drivers to 2 by 2021.

Re: Chromium blacklists Nouveau

#148

Post by staktrace »

Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #49
ryanobjc wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you expect it to be rolled back? What evidence leads you to believe that? Also, with this email it seems it is you who is turning a routine technical decision into a hostile relationship. As they say, them fighting words.

Yes, like North Korea's rocket launches are routine technical missions, too. Chromium is slinging mud at nouveau and I can't stand for that.

If you can't stand for that, then do something about it. Fix bugs, or pay people to fix bugs. On what grounds are you entitled to demand anything of the Chromium team?

Re: Chromium blacklists Nouveau

#149

Post by canttestthis »

techntoke wrote: post #142
canttestthis wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which to them will become a proprietary black box of slow JavaScript spyware and horrid markup languages Did you read the bug report?

I didn't see anything about a black box, except that users had reported issues and they didn't feel that they could investigate them because there were to many variances in Linux distros.

There are screenshots of the issue in the report. They've also said that there is a pattern of Nouveau instability that you don't see in proprietary drivers. Its all in the bug report.

Re: Chromium blacklists Nouveau

#150

Post by jachee »

geofft wrote: post #108
Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's why I used that language (and though I edited the comment, it was not because I rethought the use of the phrase): it is not the Chromium team's place to make this decision, and this decision actively harms the health of the Linux ecosystem. The decision of which driver to use is up to the user and up to the distro, and Chromium has absolutely no right to interfere with that. Nvidia is one of the worst actors o…

I have no idea how you interpret this as propping up Nvidia. They're blacklisting an (unofficial) Nvidia driver because it doesn't work. They're not telling users to use the official non-free ones; they're falling back to software rendering. Users who want acceleration can just buy an Nvidia competitor's card. Isn't that what you want?

They're blacklisting ice cream because they're lactose intolerant. They're not telling users to eat Brussels sprouts, they're falling back to plain bread. Users who want to eat something sweet can just buy some licorice. Isn't that what you want?
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