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Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

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Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#181

Post by HighPlainsDrftr »

mastazi wrote: post #170
jyriand wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone know if there is something similar to quit smoking? Tried to quit cold turkey 20 times at least, usually can’t get past the first day.

Vaping did it for me. For some reason that I ignore, you can then, as a second step, quit vaping very easily (at least for me, it was much easier than quitting cigarettes). There have been some studies about this, it’s been speculated that it’s because of the different way you absorb nicotine when vaping, as opposed to smoking. (Sorry I’m unable to find a link now but I will try later when I get home). I am now 2 yea…

10 years ago I quit smoking. I don't recommend doing it this way, but I started chewing tobacco. I didn't like it, didn't care for the taste, but for some reason, it let me break the mental habits of having a cigarette every so often, and the hand movements, etc.

About a year later, I was planning on having Lasik eye surgery. They recommended no nicotine/caffeine for 24 hours prior and 7 days after. I gave caffeine up for the next year, and never picked up nicotine again.

There is probably a few reasons why you smoke. Just remember, you probably like all of them. Start to figure out how to remove and replace them. And keep trying to quit. At some point it will work.

I probably tried to quit 200 times cold turkey, 2 or 3 times with medication, and maybe a dozen times with patches.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#182

Post by saghm »

UweSchmidt wrote: post #26
randomacct3847 wrote: post #17

It only hit me in the past few months how ingrained alcohol/drinking culture is in adult lives. It’s absolutely everywhere (ads, sports events, festivals, workplace, nightlife, social events). It’s actually crazy how lightly we treat this addictive, toxic substance that we joke about despite how many people it kills every year and harms directly and indirectly. At some point I was unknowingly drinking 4-5 times a wee…

It used to be much more ingrained. Factory or construction workers used to drink during work, and if those old movies are to believe men would pour themselves drinks all the times. These days it is mostly acceptable to decline alcohol.

Out of curiosity, do you drink? My experience as someone who doesn't drink is that people at best tend to react with confusion when I tell that that I don't drink (and not due to religious beliefs, a medical condition, or something similar). I think I'd agree that not drinking is considered socially acceptable, but I definitely feel that most people still consider complete abstention from alcohol at least abnormal.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#183

Post by HighPlainsDrftr »

saghm wrote: post #180
randomacct3847 wrote: post #17

It only hit me in the past few months how ingrained alcohol/drinking culture is in adult lives. It’s absolutely everywhere (ads, sports events, festivals, workplace, nightlife, social events). It’s actually crazy how lightly we treat this addictive, toxic substance that we joke about despite how many people it kills every year and harms directly and indirectly. At some point I was unknowingly drinking 4-5 times a wee…

As someone who doesn't drink alcohol (and never has), this can often be a bit overwhelming. People tend to be very surprised when I tell them that I don't drink and are very confused when I'm unable to provide a reason like religious beliefs, a medical condition, or family history of alcoholism. From my perspective, it's pretty strange that I need a reason not to besides not wanting to; nobody seems to expect that I…

I hate to ever say this, but alcohol is actually a selfish thing to consume. If you are drinking water and I'm drinking a beer, we are having a conversation, in a way, I'm telling you your not interesting enough because I need a kick from alcohol.

Alcohol is a funky beast, for sure.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#184

Post by solidsnack9000 »

taurath wrote: post #153
whiddershins wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are any number of persistent myths attached to the popular conception of 12 step programs. I am in no way an expert on AA, but I have researched various addiction treatment methods fairly extensively and am close to people who work professionally in recovery programs. The idea that AA reinforces the "moral failing" aspect of addiction seems contrary to everything I've ever read, heard, or seen in regards to AA.…

> The idea that AA reinforces the "moral failing" aspect of addiction seems contrary to everything I've ever read, heard, or seen in regards to AA. The entire insistence on the belief in a higher power, along with insistence that one is "powerless over your addiction" is intrinsically talking about a moral failing, and more specifically adherence to a christian-worldview where all from birth are morally failed. They…

The entire insistence on the belief in a higher power, along with insistence that one is "powerless over your addiction" is intrinsically talking about a moral failing, and more specifically adherence to a christian-worldview where all from birth are morally failed.

Does belief in a higher power constitute being morally failed? Is it even specifically Judeo-Christian?

Being "powerless over your addiction" has more to do with setting aside rationalizations and not mistaking temporary breaks for having control.

AA undeniably has a Christian flavor -- it was developed and elaborated by Christian people -- but that doesn't mean it's about Christianity.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#185

Post by virgilp »

Retric wrote: post #139
virgilp wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at the "light drinking"[] result in figure 2 - most whiskers cross the 1.0 line when it's not downright in the left-hand side! (e.g. lung cancer relative risk - if you trust that result, it means light drinking _improves_ your lung cancer prospects). They flat out state that lymphoma risk is inversely correlated with drinking. AND it's only about cancer - no word about other diseases (e.g. ischemic heart disease…

You are ignoring what the paper actually says. Each cancer type is independently analyzed independently. 1 wine a day measurably increases overal cancer risks as stated by the authors. Rather than assuming you have a better understanding after a quick analysis you may want to rethink your analysis. Hint the base rate for each cancer is not equivalent.

> 1 wine a day measurably increases overal cancer risks as stated by the authors.

Where? I just re-read it and didn't see this conclusion.

(And even if they did - it's just cancer. What if we include heart diseases, too?)

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#186

Post by mamon »

driverdan wrote: post #86
rsyring wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a pretty broad brush to paint all of religion with. There are plenty of rational arguments for Christianity for those willing to do due diligence: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/countering-a-dist...

> There are plenty of rational arguments for Christianity No there aren't. Faith, by its very definition, is irrational.

But the thing is: acting rational in every situation requires a lot of mental effort, knowledge, intelligence. Not everyone is capable of this, in fact it is quite rare (because probably you need IQ > 130).

Now, the workaround for people who fail to act rationally on their own was to give them a set of heuristics that they could follow to achieve the same effect without too much thinking, a.k.a. religion.

Of course some religions advocate totally irrational things, like human sacrifices or jihad, but some evolved to the point that following their teachings is a net gain for the society.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#187

Post by james_s_tayler »

Ok, but how can I quit drinking Coca-Cola?

Tried like 10+ times now. It's not even Coke, it's sugar. Just such a powerful grip. Always relapse when a stressful time comes. Feels just the same as alcohol or cigarettes to me, but I don't feel justified in saying it's a real problem on the same level. I feel like it is though.

Anyone else?

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#188

Post by Retric »

virgilp wrote: post #185
Retric wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are ignoring what the paper actually says. Each cancer type is independently analyzed independently. 1 wine a day measurably increases overal cancer risks as stated by the authors. Rather than assuming you have a better understanding after a quick analysis you may want to rethink your analysis. Hint the base rate for each cancer is not equivalent.

> 1 wine a day measurably increases overal cancer risks as stated by the authors. Where? I just re-read it and didn't see this conclusion. (And even if they did - it's just cancer. What if we include heart diseases, too?)

Beyond the original statement. “Every category of drinking was associated with an increased risk of cancer.”

“In the present study, alcohol drinking was associated withcancer of the oral cavity and pharynx, oesophagus (SCC) andfemale breast even at low doses. These results represent an updateand corroboration of previously published findings on the linkbetween light alcohol drinking and cancer (Bagnardi et al, 2013).Given the high proportion of light drinkers in the population andthe high incidence of these tumours, especially breast cancer(Ferlay et al, 2010), even small increases in cancer risk might be of great public health relevance. Approximately 5000 deaths from oraland pharyngeal cancer, 24 000 from oesophageal SCC and 5000 from breast cancer were attributable to light drinking in 2004worldwide (Bagnardi et al, 2013).”

Yes, some cancers where negatively associated with drinking, but the net effect was negative over the range of cancers studied.

As to light drinking and heart disease, that link is under some question as to the relative gain from drinking vs associated lifestyle factors. Short term controlled studies suggest some benifit, but it’s less clear for younger drinkers and people with good cardiovascular heath.

At a guess, the benifit of moderate drinking might win somewhere between 40 and 70 depending on specific risk factors.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#189

Post by objectivetruth »

HighPlainsDrftr wrote: post #183
saghm wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who doesn't drink alcohol (and never has), this can often be a bit overwhelming. People tend to be very surprised when I tell them that I don't drink and are very confused when I'm unable to provide a reason like religious beliefs, a medical condition, or family history of alcoholism. From my perspective, it's pretty strange that I need a reason not to besides not wanting to; nobody seems to expect that I…

I hate to ever say this, but alcohol is actually a selfish thing to consume. If you are drinking water and I'm drinking a beer, we are having a conversation, in a way, I'm telling you your not interesting enough because I need a kick from alcohol. Alcohol is a funky beast, for sure.

Counter-argument: if the beer-drinker is "selfish," then the onus is on them to drink water instead? Why isn't the water drinker "selfish" for imposing that concept on the innocent beer drinker?

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#190

Post by taurath »

solidsnack9000 wrote: post #184
taurath wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea that AA reinforces the "moral failing" aspect of addiction seems contrary to everything I've ever read, heard, or seen in regards to AA. The entire insistence on the belief in a higher power, along with insistence that one is "powerless over your addiction" is intrinsically talking about a moral failing, and more specifically adherence to a christian-worldview where all from birth are morally failed. They…

The entire insistence on the belief in a higher power, along with insistence that one is "powerless over your addiction" is intrinsically talking about a moral failing, and more specifically adherence to a christian-worldview where all from birth are morally failed. Does belief in a higher power constitute being morally failed? Is it even specifically Judeo-Christian? Being "powerless over your addiction" has more to…

I think you should check the link I posted if you want to say it doesn’t mean it’s about Christianity.
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