Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model • Hacker News Board

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#161

Post by pizza » Fri, Jan 04, 2019, 10:50 PM UTC

foldr wrote: post #43

joekrill wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it depends what you define as "not ok". I mean, why is smoking 4-5 times a week not ok? Why is shooting up heroin 4-5 times a week not ok? In the end, we're simply willfully poisoning ourselves. For some reason we, as a society, have decided that it's OK to poison ourselves with certain substances (caffeine, cigarette smoke) but not others (heroin, methamphetamines). We've made this socially acceptable. So if…

> caffeine There's little evidence that drinking coffee or tea is bad for you overall. In contrast, anything beyond very moderate alcohol consumption is almost certainly bad for you.

> The available evidence suggests that the main legitimate concern regarding caffeine and energy drink use is the potential negative impact on sleep but that, otherwise, there is no cause for concern regarding caffeine use in the general population.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4264529/

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#162

Post by thomasz » Fri, Jan 04, 2019, 10:52 PM UTC

jyriand wrote: post #122

Quequau wrote: post #11

After years and years of struggling with alcoholism and AA, I got sober with naltrexone using the "Sinclair Method". I followed the treatment plan for a few weeks and at the end quitting drinking was easy and obvious. That was just over ten years ago and I haven't had a drink or gone to any meetings since. I'm only one person and I'm fully aware that the plural of anecdote isn't data. However, the experience was so d…

Anyone know if there is something similar to quit smoking? Tried to quit cold turkey 20 times at least, usually can’t get past the first day.

I had the same problem and then quit with the first round of chemo treatment for Hodgkin's Disease, and certainly not because I had an epiphany.

It must have been one, or a combination of the many drugs against nausea, vertigo etc. I strongly suspect that the mild euphoria caused by the Corticosteroids played an important role.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#163

Post by afpx » Fri, Jan 04, 2019, 10:52 PM UTC

Quequau wrote: post #11

After years and years of struggling with alcoholism and AA, I got sober with naltrexone using the "Sinclair Method". I followed the treatment plan for a few weeks and at the end quitting drinking was easy and obvious. That was just over ten years ago and I haven't had a drink or gone to any meetings since. I'm only one person and I'm fully aware that the plural of anecdote isn't data. However, the experience was so d…

Naltrexone is an amazing medication!

Two things to note about it though.

One, it’s not a quick fix. It works by inhibiting the pleasure response of alcohol. Therefore, it takes a very long time (a few months) for the brain to become re-conditioned and not associate alcohol with pleasure. During this time, one will continue to drink, but the desire to drink should gradually wane.

Two, it has a very short half-life. Therefore, it’s very easy for the brain to trick itself into not taking it. I have seen many people ‘accidently’ forget to take it before drinking. And, since the goal is to re-train thr brain, this really defeats the purpose.

Anyway, I recommend it to all of my friends. Unfortunately, it’s not well-known, so I only discovered it after doing my own research. And, then, I had to seek out doctors that even knew about it.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#164

Post by ThrustVectoring » Fri, Jan 04, 2019, 11:05 PM UTC

pgt wrote: post #12

It seems plausible that the complex set of control systems that govern our survival became intimately intertwined with various alkaloids over a few million years, "outsourcing" production of raw building blocks to plants. One example is the way in which sulforaphane from broccoli (via glucosinolate glucoraphanin) reduces symptoms of autism in the presence of myrosinase (present in mustard). [^1] Specifically, on the…

"Reduces the symptoms of autism" isn't what you'd naively think it is. Autism symptoms are often more accurately described as "the sorts of things autistic people do while distressed." In other words, I suspect that the main effect is stress reduction of some sort, rather than autism reduction.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#165

Post by stephenhuey » Fri, Jan 04, 2019, 11:07 PM UTC

byproxy wrote: post #133

stephenhuey wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Peruse the short arguments section on Peter Kreeft's website: http://www.peterkreeft.com/featured-writing.htm

I've just read one ( http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/design.htm ) and it was less than convincing. In fact, I feel like it's a less-crude version of Mac's argument ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zgk8UdV7GQ0 ).

I don't know much about Mac, but I'm sure he was inspired by others, as was Kreeft. There's a lot more besides the one you read, e.g.

http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-exi...

I've read the Handbook of Christian Apologetics by Kreeft and it tries to make these philosophical topics more accessible to the average reader. There are numerous speakers and writers out there, and you may prefer one of them. For example, Tim Keller is quite different and you can hear him here:

https://gospelinlife.com/downloads/literalism-isn-t-the-bibl...

I've enjoyed reading Dallas Willard:

http://www.dwillard.org/articles/individual/language-being-g...

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#166

Post by toufiqbarhamov » Fri, Jan 04, 2019, 11:09 PM UTC

grawprog wrote: post #114

baragiola wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't you consider beating an addiction to actually being able to take one or two drinks and leaving it at there? In other words, if you're constantly counting the days without a drink and struggle with yourself to not drink, are you really "cured" from the addiction?

Every person i've ever met that's quit an addiction has never thought of themselves as cured. They may not partake in they're substance of choice any more but they've all still called themselves addicts and think about their substances still. As far as the counting the days thing I think I agree with you on that. A couple years ago a friend of mine was struggling to quit their drug addiction. For almost a year they w…

The term “lifestyle change” has been abused and overused, but what you’ve described is a true perfect example of the difference between something like a diet, and true lifestyle change. An alcoholic who sits in his old local drinking soda water and counting the days he’s been clean hasn’t changed the factors that led him to drink, his habits, and everything other than just not drinking. Your friend decided, not just that he should stop drinking, but that he wants to, and wants to change his life accordingly.

The problem with addition is that there’s often an “upper level” cognitive process that wants to stop, doesn’t enjoy the fallout of addition, but that exists with the “lower level” processes of enjoying the drugs and disliking withdrawal, boredom, finding new friends and ways of living. You can only really change and stay changed when you unite both of those urges and work hard to change beyond just quitting x. AA does that in a way that seems to work for some, as religion has always been capable of restricting people’s lives. Of course people who don’t believe in that framework don’t actually need it, but they do need something comprehensively geared to changing their overall lifestyle.

I think the idea of a group setting for support is smart, the idea that the group has to be fanatically religion is not.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#167

Post by sverige » Fri, Jan 04, 2019, 11:14 PM UTC

I would consider myself to be an expert of sorts on AA. I was a member for over 20 years, attended at least 4000 meetings, have read everything ever published by AA World Services (and even held private study groups with folks to discuss these books). I served at every level except national.

I left AA when I became a christian 15 years ago. (Yes, I started AA young, as a teenager.)

All that is background for these strongly held opinions:

1. AA is decidedly not christian. If anything, it is a mere cult with some christian trappings and actually some occult underpinnings. No one ever heard the gospel at an AA meeting. It's not synonymous with christianity.

2. AA's recovery rate is abysmal, and actually less successful than just doing nothing about addiction. There is lots of room for providing much more effective help for people with addictions.

3. The practice of forcing people to attend AA meetings under court order should be stopped entirely.

I know that most here are likely not christian and some are openly hostile. That's a completely different discussion than helping addicts to recover.

A good resource for the many failings of AA can be found at the Orange Papers site. It seems the original site is down, but I believe someone has mirrored it elsewhere. Lots of info on the strange origins of AA there.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#168

Post by Misdicorl » Fri, Jan 04, 2019, 11:15 PM UTC

jyriand wrote: post #122

Quequau wrote: post #11

After years and years of struggling with alcoholism and AA, I got sober with naltrexone using the "Sinclair Method". I followed the treatment plan for a few weeks and at the end quitting drinking was easy and obvious. That was just over ten years ago and I haven't had a drink or gone to any meetings since. I'm only one person and I'm fully aware that the plural of anecdote isn't data. However, the experience was so d…

Anyone know if there is something similar to quit smoking? Tried to quit cold turkey 20 times at least, usually can’t get past the first day.

Nicotine chemical dependence is gone in 48-72 hours. Take a 3 day vacation without access and you'll be done.

You can probably justify first class tickets to and from Singapore with the money you'll save to ensure you won't have access.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#169

Post by taurath » Fri, Jan 04, 2019, 11:29 PM UTC

getsugablitz2 wrote: post #128

Tushon wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that was the point of OP's comment, since you cut the rest of the statement > You drink too much for a reason, not because you're a bad person. the reason here being predisposition, environmental factors, genetics, and/or current illness

So those factors listed essentially encompass your personality and dictate why a person does any action. In that case, how do we hold anyone personally responsible for anything considering that the reason a person does any action is a result of their genetics and the environment they grow in? Not criticizing, just wondering how others reconcile this.

> In that case, how do we hold anyone personally responsible for anything considering that the reason a person does any action is a result of their genetics and the environment they grow in?

Every society struggles with this - how to stop people from acting in ways that are anti-social? Nobody has a universal solution, because universal solutions can't and don't exist - but thats why we have judges and justice systems.

Accountability is different than responsibility. Is it the fault of a pedophile that the psychological reason for their desires came through no fault of their own? No, but they are still held accountable for acting upon such desires, as its clearly an assault on the victim. Its a bit like arguing causality - it can go in a loop and you can never come out. The line most societies draw is when one person negatively effects another (assault, fraud, etc), or has a high likelihood to negatively effect another (driving dangerously, some would say drug use).

Note that being an alcoholic itself isn't illegal. Its a legal drug, you can have as much as you want as an adult in a free society. All the illegalities come in when your alcoholism negatively effects others.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#170

Post by mastazi » Sat, Jan 05, 2019, 12:00 AM UTC

jyriand wrote: post #122

Quequau wrote: post #11

After years and years of struggling with alcoholism and AA, I got sober with naltrexone using the "Sinclair Method". I followed the treatment plan for a few weeks and at the end quitting drinking was easy and obvious. That was just over ten years ago and I haven't had a drink or gone to any meetings since. I'm only one person and I'm fully aware that the plural of anecdote isn't data. However, the experience was so d…

Anyone know if there is something similar to quit smoking? Tried to quit cold turkey 20 times at least, usually can’t get past the first day.

Vaping did it for me. For some reason that I ignore, you can then, as a second step, quit vaping very easily (at least for me, it was much easier than quitting cigarettes). There have been some studies about this, it’s been speculated that it’s because of the different way you absorb nicotine when vaping, as opposed to smoking. (Sorry I’m unable to find a link now but I will try later when I get home). I am now 2 years off the stinkies, and about 9 months off vaping.