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Singapore activist found guilty of hosting ‘illegal assembly’ via Skype

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Re: Singapore activist found guilty of hosting ‘illegal assembly’ via Skype

#111

Post by toyg »

jessaustin wrote: post #78
avar wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Surely a de facto dictatorship like this shouldn’t be so wealthy and successful[...] It's also worth noting that the entirety of Singapore just barely exceeds the area enclosed by Washington DC's beltway. Whatever their form of government, small city states are always going to be able to avoid many of the pitfalls of larger countries. There's effectively only one level of government to deal with, and the despot is…

This sounds like an argument for smaller nations?

In fact, many argue that modern globalization is better suited to smaller forms of government than the XVIII century typical Nation-State on the French model. The concept of "Europe of Cities", on the model of federal Germany, is actually pretty compelling: most citizens of, say, London, have more in common with the citizens of Milan or Prague than they share with home-county backwaters; and the instances of the British countryside are closer to the ones of French countryside than of post-industrial cities like Manchester. Having London-sized macro-regions meet at European level to coordinate might be more effective and representative than the current "deep" model. It would also neutralize a whole set of issues with regional "independence" movements: Catalunya, Scotland or the Milan hinterland would be peers in Europe, rather than subjects in Milan, London and Rome.

Historically, nation-states have been mostly defined by culture, which is defined by language, which was mostly defined by communication speed, which was mostly defined by actual transportation speed. That's not an element anymore because all culture can be everywhere at any time. A new approach is required.

Re: Singapore activist found guilty of hosting ‘illegal assembly’ via Skype

#112

Post by nailer »

hkt wrote: post #59
nbevans wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They use water cannon in the rest of Europe, and even tear gas. What's the problem? They should have had a water cannon for the London Riots in 2012 - and that is why they purchased some. Which the current mayor has selfishly used for political points by selling them off for barely 10k. He will be praying they aren't ever needed.

In the UK we do policing by consent. We aren't interested in attacking our own people. Some other countries could learn by our example. The reason he "selfishly" sold them, by the way, was because they were in poor condition, cost more to keep than to sell, and were actually illegal to use . It is clear to me where you get your news from, based on what you say. It is not encouraging.

> In the UK we do policing by consent. We aren't interested in attacking our own people.

Are we interested in letting our own people be attacked? If people can loot and burn without repercussion, do you think they'll be overly concerned with bashing you or your loved ones to steal your phone?

How close was your home to the riots?

> It is clear to me where you get your news from, based on what you say. It is not encouraging.

This was unnecessarily personal and essentially meaningless - the other poster could say the same thing about you.

Re: Singapore activist found guilty of hosting ‘illegal assembly’ via Skype

#113

Post by thirteen37 »

baybal2 wrote: post #94
twic wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> both countries' economies are one trick ponies What is Singapore's trick? Their economy looks moderately diversified to me - GDP comes 13.3% from finance, 19.2% from manufacturing, 17.6% from wholesale and retail trade, 14.8% from "Business Services", and 35% from other stuff: https://www.tablebuilder.singstat.gov.sg/publicfacing/create...

There is very little genuine manufacturing left in Singapore. Back in nineties, there was big industry for trade agencies which imported random cheap stuff, and resold it to the West after stamping things with "Made in Singapore." I assume, the big portion of manufacturing other than output of chip fabs, is the remnant from those years. Add it to that double digits of trade and services will also relate to the same a…

So it is transitioning from manufacturing to offshore banking, and yet it's a one-trick pony?

Re: Singapore activist found guilty of hosting ‘illegal assembly’ via Skype

#114

Post by lotsofpulp »

thelasthuman wrote: post #95
gerbilly wrote: post #90

I would never go to Singapore. They'd probably end up whipping me a hundred times for something I did without even being aware of it. [1] IMHO that whole country should serve as a counterexample to all the rest. Humans really are good at making life miserable for each other aren't they? [1] Maybe farting in public, or wearing my shoes on the wrong feet or whatever.

You need a permit for a public assembly for most places in the USA. Granted there are a lot of differences between the two countries, but this could happen here.

You need a permit for assembly in public in the USA because it could cause traffic or other congestion issues that can create hazardous conditions, and need to be planned around. I'm sure this reasoning has been abused to prevent freedom of speech, but I don't see how it could be used online.

Re: Singapore activist found guilty of hosting ‘illegal assembly’ via Skype

#115

Post by pjc50 »

hkt wrote: post #59
nbevans wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They use water cannon in the rest of Europe, and even tear gas. What's the problem? They should have had a water cannon for the London Riots in 2012 - and that is why they purchased some. Which the current mayor has selfishly used for political points by selling them off for barely 10k. He will be praying they aren't ever needed.

In the UK we do policing by consent. We aren't interested in attacking our own people. Some other countries could learn by our example. The reason he "selfishly" sold them, by the way, was because they were in poor condition, cost more to keep than to sell, and were actually illegal to use . It is clear to me where you get your news from, based on what you say. It is not encouraging.

> We aren't interested in attacking our own people.

There's a lot of backslapping going on here that isn't really warranted; the Met are very far from perfect when we're talking about public order policing.

And that's before we get onto the subject of how policing was done in living memory in Northern Ireland.

Re: Singapore activist found guilty of hosting ‘illegal assembly’ via Skype

#116

Post by denzil_correa »

tootie wrote: post #104
nindalf wrote: post #15

I see people in this thread surprised that this is happening in Singapore, a “modern” country. Singapore is certainly wealthy, the population is highly educated, institutions aren’t corrupt, all of which is great. However, the political system resembles a democracy only superficially. Every election since 1965 has been won by the same party. It is inconceivable that the People’s Action Party wouldn’t win an election…

It's not just that it's wealthy, the people are pretty free there. I visited recently and there's nothing there that indicates it's anything other than a first-world democracy. Media and internet are not censored. It's socially conservative compared to Western Europe or the US, but not draconian at all. The authoritarian streak is there, but it's not pervasive like China.

> Media and internet are not censored.

Singapore has strong censorship mechanisms for the media and Internet. It ranks 151 on the Freedom of Press Index [0].

[0] https://rsf.org/en/singapore

Re: Singapore activist found guilty of hosting ‘illegal assembly’ via Skype

#117

Post by pjc50 »

nailer wrote: post #112
hkt wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK we do policing by consent. We aren't interested in attacking our own people. Some other countries could learn by our example. The reason he "selfishly" sold them, by the way, was because they were in poor condition, cost more to keep than to sell, and were actually illegal to use . It is clear to me where you get your news from, based on what you say. It is not encouraging.

> In the UK we do policing by consent. We aren't interested in attacking our own people. Are we interested in letting our own people be attacked? If people can loot and burn without repercussion, do you think they'll be overly concerned with bashing you or your loved ones to steal your phone? How close was your home to the riots? > It is clear to me where you get your news from, based on what you say. It is not encou…

Ultimately there were serious repercussions: thousands of people were arrested and jailed. https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/04/riot-d...

(The policing by consent issue is very real, though. Meeting riots with escalation sounds good on the night but has long consequences.)

Re: Singapore activist found guilty of hosting ‘illegal assembly’ via Skype

#118

Post by nailer »

pjc50 wrote: post #117
nailer wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the UK we do policing by consent. We aren't interested in attacking our own people. Are we interested in letting our own people be attacked? If people can loot and burn without repercussion, do you think they'll be overly concerned with bashing you or your loved ones to steal your phone? How close was your home to the riots? > It is clear to me where you get your news from, based on what you say. It is not encou…

Ultimately there were serious repercussions: thousands of people were arrested and jailed. https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/04/riot-d... (The policing by consent issue is very real, though. Meeting riots with escalation sounds good on the night but has long consequences.)

> Meeting riots with escalation sounds good on the night

You are assuming meeting riots in any way is escalating them. The riots escalated precisely because they were not met with a response.

(as a side note, although I'm not disputing anything specific in the link, The Guardian is not an objective source for riot related information - The Guardian was found to have misled the public and forced to apologise by the PCC for the misleading 'Unarmed' Duggan headline)

Re: Singapore activist found guilty of hosting ‘illegal assembly’ via Skype

#119

Post by freeflight »

saagarjha wrote: post #3

> In Singapore, it is a criminal offence under the Public Order Act to organize or participate in a public assembly without a police permit. :(

That's a regulatory reality in the vast majority of "developed countries", Germany has similar regulations in place where any public assembly can be deemed illegal if it wasn't properly registered, afaik even in the US it ain't as simple as some people often make it out to be [0].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zone

Re: Singapore activist found guilty of hosting ‘illegal assembly’ via Skype

#120

Post by mschuster91 »

gioele wrote: post #13
saagarjha wrote: post #3

> In Singapore, it is a criminal offence under the Public Order Act to organize or participate in a public assembly without a police permit. :(

I suppose that organizing or participating in a public assembly without a police permit is illegal more or less everywhere in the world. The question is whether "the Internet" is a public place or not. Case in point: Italy. A) According to article 18 of the consolidated act on public security (TULPS) it is mandatory to inform the police whenever a gathering is organized in a "public place" [1]. B) the Corte di cassaz…

    I suppose that organizing or participating in a public assembly without a police permit is illegal more or less everywhere in the world.
In Germany, per the Versammlungsgesetz'e of the federal states as well as the federal Versammlungsgesetz that applies to all states without one, you do not need a permit for an assembly, you only have to notify the police or Ordnungsamt (part of city government) 48h in advance of public announcement. This is actually meant as a direct departure from the Third Reich policy where permits were required.

If the police deems your assembly a danger to the public or unable to be held as notified (e.g. when you want to hold an assembly on an Autobahn or other major street, or in security zones during foreign state visits) they can either forbid the assembly in its entirety (which is very rare) or modify the time/location (e.g. not on the Autobahn but on a parking lot, or directly outside the security zone). In this case the assembly initiator can go to the courts and initiate emergency hearings, which sometimes (e.g. with the G20 Hamburg protests) can go up to the Bundesverfassungsgericht (our Supreme Court equivalent).

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