Detroit's Big Comeback: Out of Bankruptcy, a Rebirth • Hacker News Board

Re: Detroit's Big Comeback: Out of Bankruptcy, a Rebirth

#41

Post by malandrew » Tue, Jan 01, 2019, 4:13 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #30

nabla9 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Economic writing in narrative form is easily misleading and void of relevant information. Numbers are just sprinkled around to support the story, not to give accurate picture. Even bad economies reach equilibrium. Declining economy can decline too fast and rebound. It seems that Detroit's population is still in decline. Decline has just slowed down. How much of it is from economic cycle is unknown.

> Even bad economies reach equilibrium Venezuela is not there yet.

Well they are still sticking to their socialist agenda, which means centrally controlled economy instead of a dynamic market economy. Can't really have an equilibrium without allowing things to dynamically self correct through feedback loops. The only feedback right now is the continuing failure of centralized controls, which will likely continue indefinitely so long as those doing the controlling are using military force and violence.

Re: Detroit's Big Comeback: Out of Bankruptcy, a Rebirth

#42

Post by Scoundreller » Tue, Jan 01, 2019, 4:13 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #39

dbmk wrote: post #34

The winters are still horrible, and Americans are somewhat less tolerant of that than they once were. It would take a small miracle to make Detroit into what it used to be in 1914-1960.

I don't necessarily disagree with your broader point but what makes you think Americans are less tolerant of winter than they once were? Cities like NYC and Boston/Cambridge seem to be doing just fine.

My guess is that ubiquitous air conditioning made the south tolerable.

Or it’s just a price thing. Lots of Canadians bought winter-homes in Florida and Arizona during the 08 crash.

Re: Detroit's Big Comeback: Out of Bankruptcy, a Rebirth

#43

Post by bischofs » Tue, Jan 01, 2019, 4:34 PM UTC

pram wrote: post #12

Downtown Detroit is kind of starting to seem like a Potemkin village. A lot of these “comeback” articles focus primarily on the development in a tiny portion of the city that honestly never declined that much to begin with, in comparison to everything else. Crime and poverty are still insanely high. The school system is a tragic disaster. The majority of the urban area is still abandoned and blighted. It’s really not…

Not true, the Woodward corridor is pushing north toward New Center and is really nice. Corktown is also seeing an investment infusion due to the train station being redeveloped by Ford and lots of housing development. Check out brush park as well and Woodbridge, downtown is pushing out. Go look at it! Things are definitely changing.

Re: Detroit's Big Comeback: Out of Bankruptcy, a Rebirth

#44

Post by collyw » Tue, Jan 01, 2019, 4:43 PM UTC

hyperbovine wrote: post #31

sixeleven wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work downtown but live in the burbs. I totally agree. Its a strange feeling when the entire business district (which is what is seen as evidence of the "comeback") feels just like a giant Quicken campus. I see far more private security than police.

The burbs sprang up around a city and economy 3-4x as large as it is today. Coupled with an overall shift in preferences towards urban living among millennials, it seems unlikely that there will ever again be a need for as much suburban housing around Detroit as there was in 1950. In other words, is it really reasonable to expect all of these areas to rebound?

I am curious if there is a preference for urban living or its just a case of where the jobs are. I would quite happily live in a small town but that's not where the jobs are for me (software engineer) or my girlfriend (neurologist).

Re: Detroit's Big Comeback: Out of Bankruptcy, a Rebirth

#45

Post by JonMR » Tue, Jan 01, 2019, 4:47 PM UTC

pram wrote: post #12

Downtown Detroit is kind of starting to seem like a Potemkin village. A lot of these “comeback” articles focus primarily on the development in a tiny portion of the city that honestly never declined that much to begin with, in comparison to everything else. Crime and poverty are still insanely high. The school system is a tragic disaster. The majority of the urban area is still abandoned and blighted. It’s really not…

I agree with you about the disfunctional public services.

I disagree with you that downtown never really declined that much.

Woodward was mostly boarded up 20 years ago. During the recession downtown was a ghost town. It didn’t get worse because there was no one there to make it worse. It wasn’t uncommon to go downtown and not see a single person on the streets.

A revival has to start somewhere. Businesses and restaurants moving in is the start.

Re: Detroit's Big Comeback: Out of Bankruptcy, a Rebirth

#46

Post by lotsofpulp » Tue, Jan 01, 2019, 5:00 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #39

dbmk wrote: post #34

The winters are still horrible, and Americans are somewhat less tolerant of that than they once were. It would take a small miracle to make Detroit into what it used to be in 1914-1960.

I don't necessarily disagree with your broader point but what makes you think Americans are less tolerant of winter than they once were? Cities like NYC and Boston/Cambridge seem to be doing just fine.

I think it's safe to assume most people don't prefer to live in places with freezing temperatures, risk of pipes bursting, salt corroding your vehicles, roads with potholes, etc.

Only reason I can think of would be if the place had good skiing/snowboarding/snow activities, but you need decent mountains and snowfall for that.

Edit: NYC/Boston are outliers that have other exceptional offerings, especially related to economic opportunities. There is also inertia of being a place where people settled in first and set down roots, but I imagine most people would consider the weather of the upper midwest and upper PA/NY regions to be a negative.

Re: Detroit's Big Comeback: Out of Bankruptcy, a Rebirth

#47

Post by benrbray » Tue, Jan 01, 2019, 5:07 PM UTC

Scoundreller wrote: post #42

ghaff wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't necessarily disagree with your broader point but what makes you think Americans are less tolerant of winter than they once were? Cities like NYC and Boston/Cambridge seem to be doing just fine.

My guess is that ubiquitous air conditioning made the south tolerable. Or it’s just a price thing. Lots of Canadians bought winter-homes in Florida and Arizona during the 08 crash.

My gut feeling is that the spending habits of people who can afford a second "winter" home don't really reflect those of the average consumer...

Re: Detroit's Big Comeback: Out of Bankruptcy, a Rebirth

#48

Post by lotsofpulp » Tue, Jan 01, 2019, 5:13 PM UTC

collyw wrote: post #44

hyperbovine wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The burbs sprang up around a city and economy 3-4x as large as it is today. Coupled with an overall shift in preferences towards urban living among millennials, it seems unlikely that there will ever again be a need for as much suburban housing around Detroit as there was in 1950. In other words, is it really reasonable to expect all of these areas to rebound?

I am curious if there is a preference for urban living or its just a case of where the jobs are. I would quite happily live in a small town but that's not where the jobs are for me (software engineer) or my girlfriend (neurologist).

There is less economic stability, so it's more risky to be in a place with fewer employers, that by itself incentivizes wanting to live in an urban area.

Re: Detroit's Big Comeback: Out of Bankruptcy, a Rebirth

#49

Post by erikpukinskis » Tue, Jan 01, 2019, 5:16 PM UTC

anoncoward111 wrote: post #37

dataminded wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and yes. My last two attempts to call 911 failed because nobody would pick up. My alarm company was on hold to get to the police department for like 15+ minutes. Taxes are insane compared to what I would pay in a suburb that provided basic services and decent schools. I live in one of the nicest neighborhoods in Detroit but will likely leave it for the burbs in the next year. Detroit just isn’t affordable for a y…

I wish you godspeed. I live in a 92% black, high tax neighborbood on Long Island, but at least the police answer the phone and crime is at reasonable levels!!

What does the but in this sentence mean?

Re: Detroit's Big Comeback: Out of Bankruptcy, a Rebirth

#50

Post by c0nsumer » Tue, Jan 01, 2019, 5:19 PM UTC

collyw wrote: post #44

hyperbovine wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The burbs sprang up around a city and economy 3-4x as large as it is today. Coupled with an overall shift in preferences towards urban living among millennials, it seems unlikely that there will ever again be a need for as much suburban housing around Detroit as there was in 1950. In other words, is it really reasonable to expect all of these areas to rebound?

I am curious if there is a preference for urban living or its just a case of where the jobs are. I would quite happily live in a small town but that's not where the jobs are for me (software engineer) or my girlfriend (neurologist).

In the Detroit area the vast (VAST!) majority of the jobs are out in the suburbs. There's a good bit of stuff in downtown, but almost everything here is in an outer ring like Warren, Auburn Hills, Novi, Dearborn, Southfield, etc.