Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech • Hacker News Board

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#211

Post by wl » Tue, Jan 01, 2019, 1:56 PM UTC

abduhl wrote: post #158

4thaccount wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A professional engineer has to pass a pretty rigorous test that takes every bit of 8 hours for most folks. I studied for hundreds of hours for mine (not kidding) and it took me two tries to pass. I know great engineers who are trying for the sixth time. Getting an engineering degree is really hard at most colleges. Passing the Fundamentals of Engineering exam is also challenging, but a joke compared to the P.E. exam.…

Let's not oversell the PE or the FE: I took both drunk and completed them in under 3 hours each. The true point of being a professional engineer is that you've satisfied the MINIMUM requirements to be licensed and, therefore, you are licensed by the state to sign off on documents within what you consider your expertise. It relies on you to make that determination with the understanding that you should know better, re…

If he were holding himself out as a "professional engineer," I'd absolutely agree with you. However, there are entire fields of engineering that have largely ignored the PE. Good luck finding a PE, for example, to work under if you're an electrical engineer to even be eligible to sit for the PE exam. I don't think such engineers are any less engineers because they lack a PE.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#212

Post by rightbyte » Tue, Jan 01, 2019, 1:57 PM UTC

village-idiot wrote: post #71

threatofrain wrote: post #49

> Jarlstrom, who holds a bachelors of science degree in engineering from Sweden, has repeatedly challenged Oregon’s timing of yellow traffic lights as too short. > He was investigated by the Oregon Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying for the “unlicensed practice of engineering,’’ after he sent his traffic light calculations to the state board, and identified himself as an engineer to local media and…

Seems like clear cut retaliation.

Heh, yeah.

It's not like he have made calculation of bridge steel welds or something without proper legal papers. He complained over the yellow light timing ...

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#213

Post by criddell » Tue, Jan 01, 2019, 2:03 PM UTC

naasking wrote: post #207

grecy wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I studied a degree called "Software Engineering" and am acredited by the Australian Institute of Engineers (the first, and AFAIK, only, Software degree that is certified). Working in Canada where my degree was not certified, all the PEng people would get seriously uptight if I even said "I studied Engineering" or "I have a bachelor of Engineering".

> Working in Canada where my degree was not certified, all the PEng people would get seriously uptight if I even said "I studied Engineering" or "I have a bachelor of Engineering". As a Canadian engineering graduate myself, I don't think that's true. Saying you studied engineering is fine, that's literally what the degree is. Calling yourself an engineer is a different story, and that requires more work. It's like ca…

Do they let the people operating trains call themselves engineers?

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#214

Post by wl » Tue, Jan 01, 2019, 2:03 PM UTC

lrem wrote: post #200

4thaccount wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A professional engineer has to pass a pretty rigorous test that takes every bit of 8 hours for most folks. I studied for hundreds of hours for mine (not kidding) and it took me two tries to pass. I know great engineers who are trying for the sixth time. Getting an engineering degree is really hard at most colleges. Passing the Fundamentals of Engineering exam is also challenging, but a joke compared to the P.E. exam.…

I have an engineering degree (masters level), but most places don't allow me to call myself an "engineer". I also have a PhD and same stands for "doctor". Oh well...

The funny thing about the medical community trying to monopolize the use of the term "doctor" is that physicians are rarely actually doctors themselves. While MD programs require a bachelor degree and certain prerequisite course work, the MD is the first degree someone can earn in medicine. Traditionally, the first earned medical degrees were bachelor degrees (MBBS) and that's a more honest way of doing things. Same thing with the JD (law). It's a renamed LLB undergraduate degree rather than a real doctorate.

So congrats on actually being a doctor.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#215

Post by criddell » Tue, Jan 01, 2019, 2:06 PM UTC

milkthefat wrote: post #53

c3534l wrote: post #7

I know in the US you can call yourself a real estate agent, but not a Realtor unless you're part of the National Association of Realtors. This seems just to me: an organization shouldn't be allowed to steal a word from the English language like "engineer." But if you want to create your own brand and maintain its quality, you're more than welcome to invent a novel term and do that. But simply claiming by fiat that yo…

The entire reason for this was scummy to begin with. Järlström had presented clear evidence that the system was flawed. The state or county he presented it to used his “public” title(engineer) to try and obscure the wide spread incompetence of the matter while taking nearly a year to resolve the maths in question.

You make it sound like a simple ad hominem attack on the guy. Was it?

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#216

Post by wl » Tue, Jan 01, 2019, 2:06 PM UTC

naasking wrote: post #210

Taniwha wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No - the judge affirmed that the state can still control who can call themselves a "professional engineer" or "licensed professional engineer" - but allowed anyone to claim to be an "engineer" ... it's a situation akin to being an "accredited teacher" with a teaching credential compared to all of us who teach at one time or another

I guess anyone can call themselves a doctor then, and we'll just have to call proper doctors "professional doctors" or "licensed professional doctors".

Call them what they are: physicians. A four year entry level degree in a subject is a bachelor degree, not a doctorate.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#217

Post by WilliamEdward » Tue, Jan 01, 2019, 2:22 PM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #179

DINKDINK wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Järlström didn't claim he was a Professional Engineer (a very specific certification) just an engineer. This case is akin to someone who does wood working in their house (maybe even studied it) calling themselves a carpenter but not a Licensed Carpenter. Speech can never be a crime "They have uttered the untoward words! Imprison them." Speech can breach a contract "You agreed not to yell fire in my theater, you owe m…

>Speech can never be a crime Speech can be a crime. Google limitations on free speech. The specific example you gave is in fact a crime.

But in this case the intent is to cause harm which is a crime, not merely saying the words. Thats why the crime is "yelling fire in a crowded theater" not just "yelling fire". Notice the difference and how it becomes a completely different action altogether despite saying the same thing.

I don't think it's fair to say speech can be a crime on its own.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#218

Post by InternetOfStuff » Tue, Jan 01, 2019, 2:36 PM UTC

naasking wrote: post #207

grecy wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I studied a degree called "Software Engineering" and am acredited by the Australian Institute of Engineers (the first, and AFAIK, only, Software degree that is certified). Working in Canada where my degree was not certified, all the PEng people would get seriously uptight if I even said "I studied Engineering" or "I have a bachelor of Engineering".

> Working in Canada where my degree was not certified, all the PEng people would get seriously uptight if I even said "I studied Engineering" or "I have a bachelor of Engineering". As a Canadian engineering graduate myself, I don't think that's true. Saying you studied engineering is fine, that's literally what the degree is. Calling yourself an engineer is a different story, and that requires more work. It's like ca…

Out of curiosity:

I studied engineering in Germany. There's no such thing as a PEng in Germany -- the only thing is that the title of Dipl.-Ing. (equivalent to MEng), which was the culmination of my studies, is protected.

How does it make you feel for me to claim I'm an engineer?

(BTW, I get seriously uptight at all the web designers who like to call themselves engineers :-) )

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#219

Post by sa-mao » Tue, Jan 01, 2019, 2:39 PM UTC

naasking wrote: post #207

grecy wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I studied a degree called "Software Engineering" and am acredited by the Australian Institute of Engineers (the first, and AFAIK, only, Software degree that is certified). Working in Canada where my degree was not certified, all the PEng people would get seriously uptight if I even said "I studied Engineering" or "I have a bachelor of Engineering".

> Working in Canada where my degree was not certified, all the PEng people would get seriously uptight if I even said "I studied Engineering" or "I have a bachelor of Engineering". As a Canadian engineering graduate myself, I don't think that's true. Saying you studied engineering is fine, that's literally what the degree is. Calling yourself an engineer is a different story, and that requires more work. It's like ca…

If you study engineering. You will probably end up with an engineering degree (something like a doctorate for doctors) which makes completely legit to call yourself an engineer.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#220

Post by garmaine » Tue, Jan 01, 2019, 2:41 PM UTC

ken wrote: post #54

c3534l wrote: post #7

I know in the US you can call yourself a real estate agent, but not a Realtor unless you're part of the National Association of Realtors. This seems just to me: an organization shouldn't be allowed to steal a word from the English language like "engineer." But if you want to create your own brand and maintain its quality, you're more than welcome to invent a novel term and do that. But simply claiming by fiat that yo…

So you think anyone should be able to call themselves "physicians" or "lawyers" or "police", as those are English words that predate their professional associations?

Is a mall cop a cop?