Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

oregonlive.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

201–210 of 309 posts

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#201

Post by ivoras »

This is all ridiculously country- and culture- specific. For example many places in Europe have adopted what I think is originally a German idea that anything vaguely technical, if done professionally, is engineering. So you have "engineers of chemistry" which is kind of reasonable but also "engineers of mathematics" which seems odd.

Here, you can call yourself whatever you like but if the company hiring you requires diplomas or certificates, then you either have them or don't. Because of that, nobody makes a fuss about it.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#202

Post by kd5bjo »

darpa_escapee wrote: post #125
wallace_f wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People should be held liable for intentionally stating non-truths with respect to one's own, or another's character: ie falsely claiming to have a certain medical license. Howver, I don't see how you can come to the conclusion that ordinary people should not be able to tell their children, friends, parents, or anyone, medical advice. If so, where does it end? Can you tell your child to take medication? Which medicati…

> Howver, I don't see how you can come to the conclusion that ordinary people should not be able to tell their children, friends, parents, or anyone, medical advice. Please do not strawman my position. The discussion was about people purposely portraying themselves as doctors and then dispensing medical advice. I have no problem with someone giving medical advice. I do have a problem with someone pretending to be a d…

I get mistaken for somebody with authority all the time. What happens when a lay member of the public offers medical advice, and the recipient mistakes them for a doctor despite having made no claims to that title?

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#203

Post by chrisseaton »

grecy wrote: post #192
eigenvector wrote: post #32

As a licensed professional engineer, I find the effort exerted by various state and provincial licensing bodies to regulate the use of the term 'engineer' a bit tiresome. Yes, it's important to regulate the practice of engineering, but unlike some other types of professionals engineers rarely if ever offer their services to Joe Public. It's not like we have guys putting up billboards on the side of the highway advert…

I studied a degree called "Software Engineering" and am acredited by the Australian Institute of Engineers (the first, and AFAIK, only, Software degree that is certified). Working in Canada where my degree was not certified, all the PEng people would get seriously uptight if I even said "I studied Engineering" or "I have a bachelor of Engineering".

> Working in Canada where my degree was not certified

If they have an engineering conference in Canada, and a notable engineering expert comes from abroad to speak but isn't from a Canadian certified school (perhaps they're from a British one instead) do they get uptight about that as well?

At some point they must accept that non-Canadian-certified people can be engineers as well?

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#204

Post by Nimitz14 »

grecy wrote: post #192
eigenvector wrote: post #32

As a licensed professional engineer, I find the effort exerted by various state and provincial licensing bodies to regulate the use of the term 'engineer' a bit tiresome. Yes, it's important to regulate the practice of engineering, but unlike some other types of professionals engineers rarely if ever offer their services to Joe Public. It's not like we have guys putting up billboards on the side of the highway advert…

I studied a degree called "Software Engineering" and am acredited by the Australian Institute of Engineers (the first, and AFAIK, only, Software degree that is certified). Working in Canada where my degree was not certified, all the PEng people would get seriously uptight if I even said "I studied Engineering" or "I have a bachelor of Engineering".

A PEng is waay more work and implies way more experience and knowledge that someone who's just done a Bachelor. I can understand their annoyance.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#205

Post by rm445 »

ivoras wrote: post #201

This is all ridiculously country- and culture- specific. For example many places in Europe have adopted what I think is originally a German idea that anything vaguely technical, if done professionally, is engineering. So you have "engineers of chemistry" which is kind of reasonable but also "engineers of mathematics" which seems odd. Here, you can call yourself whatever you like but if the company hiring you requires…

'Engineer of mathematics' and the like make sense given that academia has been fairly effective in making society believe 'science' means scientific research, rather than all of the scientific pursuits including engineering and manufacturing.

(Talking about language here, not state regulation of professions).

There are employees at the company I work with great job titles like 'mathematician' and 'physicist'. But if the physicist is applying known principles (obscure ones about photon behaviour, but well-understood principles) to product development rather than blue-sky R&D, what is their actual job? - Given many people would think a physicist is a researcher. There's an argument that the job in question is actually 'physics engineer'.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#206

Post by runeks »

imgabe wrote: post #131
Gibbon1 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I had a discussion about this my put was that licensing is an archaic way of doing things. In short the idea is we trust the PE's signature that everything is copacetic. In more modern fields like automotive, aerospace and software engineering that idea is laughable. Everything is about process, audit and testing.

It all comes down to insurance. If your building collapses, the insurance company will want to know if you did every reasonable thing possible to prevent it before they pay out on your policy. One of those things is making sure that the person who designed the building knew what they were doing, i.e. were they a licensed engineer. I think most product companies are essentially self-insured. If Ford releases the Pinto…

> It all comes down to insurance. If your building collapses, the insurance company will want to know if you did every reasonable thing possible to prevent it before they pay out on your policy. One of those things is making sure that the person who designed the building knew what they were doing, i.e. were they a licensed engineer.

That has nothing to do with the law, though. Ie. any insurance company ought to be able to decide for itself what qualifies as "engineer". There's no need for the state to define this and sue people -- the insurance company can simply refuse to sell an insurance unless the work was done by people considered, by the insurance company, as "engineers".

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#207

Post by naasking »

grecy wrote: post #192
eigenvector wrote: post #32

As a licensed professional engineer, I find the effort exerted by various state and provincial licensing bodies to regulate the use of the term 'engineer' a bit tiresome. Yes, it's important to regulate the practice of engineering, but unlike some other types of professionals engineers rarely if ever offer their services to Joe Public. It's not like we have guys putting up billboards on the side of the highway advert…

I studied a degree called "Software Engineering" and am acredited by the Australian Institute of Engineers (the first, and AFAIK, only, Software degree that is certified). Working in Canada where my degree was not certified, all the PEng people would get seriously uptight if I even said "I studied Engineering" or "I have a bachelor of Engineering".

> Working in Canada where my degree was not certified, all the PEng people would get seriously uptight if I even said "I studied Engineering" or "I have a bachelor of Engineering".

As a Canadian engineering graduate myself, I don't think that's true. Saying you studied engineering is fine, that's literally what the degree is. Calling yourself an engineer is a different story, and that requires more work. It's like calling yourself a doctor without a doctorate. Notice how I didn't call myself an engineer, and that's because I didn't get my PEng.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#208

Post by [deleted] »

DINKDINK wrote: post #119
ken wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you think anyone should be able to call themselves "physicians" or "lawyers" or "police", as those are English words that predate their professional associations?

Järlström didn't claim he was a Professional Engineer (a very specific certification) just an engineer. This case is akin to someone who does wood working in their house (maybe even studied it) calling themselves a carpenter but not a Licensed Carpenter. Speech can never be a crime "They have uttered the untoward words! Imprison them." Speech can breach a contract "You agreed not to yell fire in my theater, you owe m…

[deleted]

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#209

Post by naasking »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #103
eigenvector wrote: post #32

As a licensed professional engineer, I find the effort exerted by various state and provincial licensing bodies to regulate the use of the term 'engineer' a bit tiresome. Yes, it's important to regulate the practice of engineering, but unlike some other types of professionals engineers rarely if ever offer their services to Joe Public. It's not like we have guys putting up billboards on the side of the highway advert…

Last time I had a discussion about this my put was that licensing is an archaic way of doing things. In short the idea is we trust the PE's signature that everything is copacetic. In more modern fields like automotive, aerospace and software engineering that idea is laughable. Everything is about process, audit and testing.

> Everything is about process, audit and testing

And how do you know the process, auditing and testing was done? With documentation signed by someone who can verify this and is legally liable if it wasn't done properly.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#210

Post by naasking »

Taniwha wrote: post #132
sandworm101 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once worked in the live entertainment industry. We often had engineers sign off on stage/tower structures. When they got the math wrong things fell on heads. Our insurance demanded licensed engineers. Anyone using that term, professing, to be an engineer better be one. This case essentially removes engineer from the list of recognized professions. That club now only belongs to the doctors and lawyers. Even hairdres…

No - the judge affirmed that the state can still control who can call themselves a "professional engineer" or "licensed professional engineer" - but allowed anyone to claim to be an "engineer" ... it's a situation akin to being an "accredited teacher" with a teaching credential compared to all of us who teach at one time or another

I guess anyone can call themselves a doctor then, and we'll just have to call proper doctors "professional doctors" or "licensed professional doctors".
Post reply on HN