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Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

oregonlive.com

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Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#101

Post by loeg »

ghaff wrote: post #89
AmericanChopper wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think of those guilds more as the most effective unions in the world. The reason lawyers, doctors, pilots, etc... are paid so well is because they’ve successfully limited entry into their fields. They’ve all got arduous entry requirements, and you can’t operate without the unions blessing. It’s simple supply and demand after that point.

Two of the three fields you mention are not paid especially well on average.

Pilots have an extremely high hourly rate if you discount the time autopilot is engaged (and senior pilots make a lot more than junior pilots).

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#102

Post by loeg »

Waterluvian wrote: post #2

This is interesting to me because in Ontario where I reside, I cannot call myself an engineer. The professional engineering association is ruthless in enforcing it. But my employer is in Massachusetts, where I can be called an engineer. So I'm not sure if my business cards can get me in trouble here.

Maybe you can call yourself a Software Physician instead ;-).

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#103

Post by Gibbon1 »

eigenvector wrote: post #32

As a licensed professional engineer, I find the effort exerted by various state and provincial licensing bodies to regulate the use of the term 'engineer' a bit tiresome. Yes, it's important to regulate the practice of engineering, but unlike some other types of professionals engineers rarely if ever offer their services to Joe Public. It's not like we have guys putting up billboards on the side of the highway advert…

Last time I had a discussion about this my put was that licensing is an archaic way of doing things.

In short the idea is we trust the PE's signature that everything is copacetic. In more modern fields like automotive, aerospace and software engineering that idea is laughable. Everything is about process, audit and testing.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#104

Post by xupybd »

>She directed the state to remove the definition of "engineer,'' from its state law and administrative rules, and simply restrict who can consider themselves a “professional engineer,” or a “registered professional engineer.”

I think that distinction is important. Here in NZ engineer could mean a trained engineer with a 4 year degree or it could mean a fabricator / fitter turner trained via an apprenticeship.

You also have people like my self. I hold an engineering degree but I have not pursued membership in my nation engineering body. So I'm not a “registered professional engineer” as there is no local support for this in the software field I went into. I'd never call my self a registered engineer but I may consider using the term to describe my qualifications.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#105

Post by Gibbon1 »

monochromatic wrote: post #68
gambiting wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. I'm just trying to think what would be the negative consequence of someone calling themselves a lawyer or police in a TV interview like here, and I can't think of one, other than the fact that they are making an idiot out of themselves. Like, it shouldn't be illegal.

Would it be ok for a non-lawyer to hold himself out as a lawyer and accept money from “clients” who were fooled?

Difference between a lawyer and a realtor is a lawyer has to get a law degree and pass the bar exam and then really doesn't owe anyone shit.

Realtor's are a cross between a MLM and a guild.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#106

Post by sandworm101 »

eigenvector wrote: post #32

As a licensed professional engineer, I find the effort exerted by various state and provincial licensing bodies to regulate the use of the term 'engineer' a bit tiresome. Yes, it's important to regulate the practice of engineering, but unlike some other types of professionals engineers rarely if ever offer their services to Joe Public. It's not like we have guys putting up billboards on the side of the highway advert…

I once worked in the live entertainment industry. We often had engineers sign off on stage/tower structures. When they got the math wrong things fell on heads. Our insurance demanded licensed engineers. Anyone using that term, professing, to be an engineer better be one.

This case essentially removes engineer from the list of recognized professions. That club now only belongs to the doctors and lawyers. Even hairdressers cannot call themselves such without state recognition.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#107

Post by throwaway2048 »

gambiting wrote: post #85
throwaway2048 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes it fraud, what makes them calling themselves a lawyer not valid, if not the law?

Fraud is lying for financial gain. Lying for its own sake is not. You can say and pretend you are a lawyer as much as you like, but only as long as you don't do it to decieve someone for money.

I read become a lawyer in 8 hours the howto book, am i still committing fraud?

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#108

Post by you_owe_me »

markdown wrote: post #61
greglindahl wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where I live, people call themselves engineers all of the time, and it's not considered to imply any particular license or degree or accreditation.

> and it's not considered to imply any particular license or degree or accreditation. Which sucks, doesn't it. It's advertising (ie. a lie) that's been repeated so much that it's become accepted. I know many software "engineers". They aren't real engineers, they just didn't like being called software programmers or coders.

The words engineer and engineering connote high intellect, professionalism and most importantly "gravitas". So, it's not a surprise that software developers/coders/programmers (usually a snubbed crowd) love being called engineers.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#109

Post by phonon »

loeg wrote: post #95
darpa_escapee wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone who calls themselves a doctor or a lawyer goes on TV and gives medical or legal advice, that can cause harm and sets a bad precedent.

E.g., "Dr" Oz. Although I suspect most doctors are less likely to do that than folks who do not hold a medical degree.

Dr. Oz is very much a medical doctor.

Oz has been a professor at the Department of Surgery at Columbia University since 2001. He directs the Cardiovascular Institute and Complementary Medicine Program at New York-Presbyterian Hospital. His research interests include heart valve replacement surgery, minimally invasive cardiac surgery, and health care policy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehmet_Oz

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#110

Post by SamReidHughes »

MetalGuru wrote: post #23

“The record before this Court demonstrates that the Board has repeatedly targeted individuals for using the title ‘engineer’ in non-commercial contexts, including core political speech such as campaigning for public office and advocacy against a local ballot initiative.” Although I agree with the sentiment of the article, I do think it would be deceptive for a politician to claim to be an engineer if they hadn’t done…

> It could help develop accountability and best engineering practices.

Have you ever read books about that? There are multiple layers of awful ideas about software engineering, touted as best practice. It's a cesspit of idiocy. Too many morons are going around trying to say things about engineering practices for it to be possible to make a useful accreditation.

It would also end up being a negative hiring signal, like existing certifications and Master's degrees.

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