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> Jarlstrom, who holds a bachelors of science degree in engineering from Sweden, has repeatedly challenged Oregon’s timing of yellow traffic lights as too short. > He was investigated by the Oregon Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying for the “unlicensed practice of engineering,’’ after he sent his traffic light calculations to the state board, and identified himself as an engineer to local media and…
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Sure. I'm just trying to think what would be the negative consequence of someone calling themselves a lawyer or police in a TV interview like here, and I can't think of one, other than the fact that they are making an idiot out of themselves. Like, it shouldn't be illegal.
Would it be ok for a non-lawyer to hold himself out as a lawyer and accept money from “clients” who were fooled?
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Sure. I'm just trying to think what would be the negative consequence of someone calling themselves a lawyer or police in a TV interview like here, and I can't think of one, other than the fact that they are making an idiot out of themselves. Like, it shouldn't be illegal.
If someone who calls themselves a doctor or a lawyer goes on TV and gives medical or legal advice, that can cause harm and sets a bad precedent.
Due process can cause some predators to roam free, or cost taxpayers and victims expense to the benefit of evil people.
This argument that something should be illegal because it can cause harm is really shallow.
I know in the US you can call yourself a real estate agent, but not a Realtor unless you're part of the National Association of Realtors. This seems just to me: an organization shouldn't be allowed to steal a word from the English language like "engineer." But if you want to create your own brand and maintain its quality, you're more than welcome to invent a novel term and do that. But simply claiming by fiat that yo…
So you think anyone should be able to call themselves "physicians" or "lawyers" or "police", as those are English words that predate their professional associations?
There's no such confusion when it comes to the other professions listed, no huge gray area where everyone calls you a physician even though you only work with animals: those are veterinarians.
2 of 68 in my graduating class of BSE students took the PE exam. I think almost all of us now have business cards which include the word 'engineer'. That's not a gopd position from which some outsiders can selectively declare that the term is protected.
My experience has been that anyone who claims 'engineer' is protected is selling something, or at least trying to protect the value of the scheme they bought into. There are a couple jobs that legitimately need it where the regulatory environment requires, but they know who they are and know they are rare.
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Sure. I'm just trying to think what would be the negative consequence of someone calling themselves a lawyer or police in a TV interview like here, and I can't think of one, other than the fact that they are making an idiot out of themselves. Like, it shouldn't be illegal.
If someone who calls themselves a doctor or a lawyer goes on TV and gives medical or legal advice, that can cause harm and sets a bad precedent.
Does free speech mean anyone can call themselves a doctor, too?
From the article: Beckerman, in the 25-page written ruling, declared that Järlström may study and, communicate publicly or privately about his theories relating to traffic lights, as long as his remarks occur outside the context of any employment or contractual relationship with a governmental or other group that regulates traffic light-timing. I'm guessing this means that it's not calling yourself a doctor, but prac…
This is interesting to me because in Ontario where I reside, I cannot call myself an engineer. The professional engineering association is ruthless in enforcing it. But my employer is in Massachusetts, where I can be called an engineer. So I'm not sure if my business cards can get me in trouble here.
The professional engineering association is ruthless in enforcing it. What do they call people who drive trains in Ontario?
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Where I live, people call themselves engineers all of the time, and it's not considered to imply any particular license or degree or accreditation.
> and it's not considered to imply any particular license or degree or accreditation. Which sucks, doesn't it. It's advertising (ie. a lie) that's been repeated so much that it's become accepted. I know many software "engineers". They aren't real engineers, they just didn't like being called software programmers or coders.
Does free speech mean anyone can call themselves a doctor, too?
In the US, laws restricting speech are generally unconstitutional unless the government can demonstrate both a compelling need to restrict it and the law is sufficiently narrowly construed to actually restrict only that speech which needs to be restricted for that need. In general, prohibition of self-appellations like engineer and doctor in commercial speech is considered constitutional.
In this case, the ruling found that the statute in question was broad enough to encompass more than commercial speech, and that the agency had repeatedly shown itself to believe that it did. Furthermore, it found that the use of the term "engineer," even in a commercial context, didn't inherently mislead people to believe that it referred to a certified and licensed engineer, and so the ban is overly broad. Note that if the terminology were to use specific accreditations, such as certified public accountant or registered practicing engineer, that line of argument would not work. The court concludes that only deleting the word "engineer" from two separate places in the law is necessary to conform with constitutional practice, so if the person in question had instead claimed themselves to be a "professional engineer", they would still be liable under the law.
If the law were written differently, then a ban on calling oneself an engineer (or doctor) would pass constitutional muster. It might even be possible to have a constitutional law that would prohibit Dr. Oz from calling himself Dr. Oz, although I do concede that it would be a difficult construction.
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Would it be ok for a non-lawyer to hold himself out as a lawyer and accept money from “clients” who were fooled?
Of course not. That's fraud and already illegal.