How the Valley treats experienced people • Hacker News Board

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#221

Post by jsjohnst » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 4:38 PM UTC

DJHenk wrote: post #130

jsjohnst wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shouldn’t list your entire career on your resume, just the past 10-15 years. Also, assuming “18 + length of schooling” is bad too. You’d be way off on my age then too (I graduated HS several years early).

> Also, assuming “18 + length of schooling” is bad too. That does not mean that it doesn't happen. I mean, we already established that we're dealing with short-sighted people here.

> That does not mean that it doesn't happen.

Never said it doesn’t happen, I know it does. I simply stated it’s a very flawed approach and gave one example of why.

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#222

Post by romeisendcoming » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 4:39 PM UTC

xb10y wrote: post #35

pojzon wrote: post #19

Works pretty well for Google tho. Too bad most companies dont understand that they are not Google! and never will be - most often - dont even have to be. Unfortunately most managers are sheeps, only able to copy ideas of other ppl without thought if its even needed/required. Im in this industry for a few years and already see that all middle level managers should be fired. Software Craftsmen would be a lot better to…

How does it work for Google? Except for the "search+ads" division, which seems too important to ruin, Google gives the impression of a highly unfocused company with internal feuds and fiefdoms that releases one half-baked product after the next. It seems to me that Google only hires to keep people from working for the competition.

You could be right. The security team and some of the kernel developers are top notch though.

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#223

Post by jondubois » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 4:39 PM UTC

In my 20s, I used to think like that because that's what I was told by everyone around me. Now I find this idea infuriating.

I'm almost 30 now and I've been working insanely hard since before I left school and during university; I've been working at least 70 hours per week for 12 years (40 hours on my startup or corporate contracting day job, 30 hours on a side project). I've had some minor successes but still no big break - I'm not far from where I left off financially.

One of the many companies I worked for is doing relatively well and I'm hopeful that my small stake will be worth enough to buy a modest house/apartment someday but it's still a big gamble at this stage; the shares could still become worthless... Even if everything goes perfectly well, it's still not enough for me to retire. I feel that I got very lucky with that one. I can clearly see how it's possible to get to 50 years old working nonstop like a freak and making all the right decisions and still not make it financially.

I've been quite strategic about my career so far. I worked for startups which had relatively low valuations, proven tech, value-creating areas, fast growth, good investors, smart founders, were just starting to onboard big clients and sign big contracts. I also worked for a few hyped SV startups too (I worked for a SV-based Y Combinator company for over a year).

Even among the 12 or so software companies that I worked at and left, none of them had successful exits yet or grew sufficiently that it would have allowed me to make enough money to retire (even if I could pick the best one and assume that I had been able to negotiate a good equity package). Only one startup I worked at is doing relatively well and that's also the one which I stayed at the longest and have the most equity in.

I feel that people who got a big break before they turned 30 missed out on learning about reality.

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#224

Post by dominotw » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 4:39 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #206

dominotw wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds discriminatory against ppl who don't have kids and are over 40. 'work to death when you are young or raise family when you are old' is not a good 'value', imo. Your employer shouldn't have some 'values' about what you do outside work.

> Sounds discriminatory against ppl who don't have kids and are over 40. The economy ceases to exist if, in the long run, couples don't have at least 2.1 kids on average. People are free to not have kids, of course, but having them serves an essential social function and it's not "discriminatory" to have values that accommodate that.

So what does that value imply about ppl without kids? That they should be putting more hours in or have less flexible schedules?

Why not have resonable work schedules for everyone, children or not. I just dont' get why employers have to come up with discriminatory policies for the 'good of the economy'. I would rather support a transparent 'tax childess ppl more' govt policies that these insidious "values". Whatever happened to the value that your employer shouldn't care what you do outside of work.

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#225

Post by TeMPOraL » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 4:40 PM UTC

isoskeles wrote: post #197

slics wrote: post #88

If one thinks 35+ is to old to code, well I have news for you. At 35+ you learn how to manage time and prioritize better. Life throws another ranch in your bucket of problems, marriage and children. When you are young, you are hired as an engineer to work 40 hours, which we all know very well that working for startups that means 80 hours or you are not putting good effort. Well with a family that’s not possible, as y…

> soon we will be left with a society that only focuses on how to better themselves and not mentoring or preparing the next generation of smart people I fear we are well on our way to this type of society. "Learning" is a virtue. You'll hear many people say, "I like learning," or some other version of this cliche. It reminds me of this idea, and it makes me cringe, partly because of the robotic aspect and partly beca…

> partly because it means they've chosen self-focus and self-improvement over helping others

There's balance to be had here. You have to take care of yourself to help others more effectively. In case of learning, the less you know, the less you can give to the next generation.

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#226

Post by joejerryronnie » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 4:41 PM UTC

rb808 wrote: post #112

Is it really common to retire at 35? I'd think it would be just a few could afford that. Around here property taxes plus health insurance for a family is $50k/yr. So from 35->65 that is $1.5m. Not including cost of living of course. Maybe the stock market has been way too successful in the last few decades. Ask a European or Japanese person about retiring early and living off the market. (of course many 35 year olds…

No, it is not common - even in the mythical valley. Very few people relative to the entire industry strike it rich with enough money to travel the world drinking champagne and eating caviar. The typical valley story goes:

When you're 20 - Live in SF and chase your startup dream of making it big. Most likely left with a bunch of worthless options and too little pay for the hours you worked, but great friends and memories (mostly of the after hours parties).

When you're 30 - Transition to FAANG like company. Live in SF and commute to the valley. Start making some real money but feel like you sold out. Still harbor dreams of quitting and launching your startup - right after that next big vesting period.

When you're 40 - Screw startups, you've got a family to feed, a mortgage to pay, and college tuition to think about. You've finally made the move from super-hipster, urban, walkable SF to a random suburb in the valley and may have even purchased gasp a minivan! Secretly, you find it a much more pleasurable living experience than SF but won't admit that to anyone.

When you're 50 - Hopefully, through hard work, smart financial decisions, and a little risk taking, you've gotten your finances under control. You've figured out how to use debt effectively, have a solid set of investments, and ideally are working toward multiple streams of income. You can now legitimately plan your next big career progression, whether that's retirement (still several years out), scaling back your full time work to focus on passion projects, or actually launching that startup (with a statistically much higher probability of success than any 20-something founder).

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#227

Post by mcguire » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 4:42 PM UTC

humanrebar wrote: post #202

mcguire wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to assert without evidence that no one in this industry is thinking 3 years out, much less 10. Heck, the chance someone you hire today is going to be working for your company in 10 years approximates 0.

Why ever hire people with no experience then?

1. You need somebody.

2. They're cheap.

3. They went to the same school/non-school/frat/boot camp you did.

4. They look like they'll be fun to hang out with.

5. You also have no experience.

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#228

Post by madengr » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 4:42 PM UTC

marktangotango wrote: post #95

slics wrote: post #88

If one thinks 35+ is to old to code, well I have news for you. At 35+ you learn how to manage time and prioritize better. Life throws another ranch in your bucket of problems, marriage and children. When you are young, you are hired as an engineer to work 40 hours, which we all know very well that working for startups that means 80 hours or you are not putting good effort. Well with a family that’s not possible, as y…

The distinction between valley culture and everywhere else is never made in these pieces which is a pity. I work in fortune 500s and we’re all 40+ in these companies. I rarely see 20s.

Ditto, I’m 48 and design hardware at a defense contractor in flyover country. Plenty of people working here 60+.

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#229

Post by closeparen » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 4:44 PM UTC

throwaway713 wrote: post #204

galangalalgol wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I too work in a fortune 500 outside the valley. Occasionally I wonder why we lose so many young coders good and bad to SV. I'll then go check salaries using a job hunting site for the same positions in SV and they pay the same or less after adjusting for cost of living. Is there some magic pool of jobs there that let you retired after 10 years that I am not seeing? I'm coming up on 20 years of writing c++ and I'm not…

> I'll then go check salaries using a job hunting site for the same positions in SV and they pay the same or less after adjusting for cost of living That's the problem. Salaries on job hunting sites are wildly inaccurate. Glassdoor lists FANG compensation as 2-3x less than what they actually pay. Also, the important metric isn't COL adjusted income; it's the total amount of money that's left over to save/invest after…

Under specific assumptions:

1) You don’t aspire to own a home here, as that will eat easily 100% or more of your savings.

2) You plan to spend your savings in a cheaper place.

USD is a convenient shorthand for purchasing power, but breaks down under huge regional COL differences. A $200k savings account in the Bay Area is like a $50k savings account elsewhere: about enough to think about setting up a middle-class grown-up lifestyle.

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#230

Post by vinceguidry » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 4:44 PM UTC

dannypgh wrote: post #153

vinceguidry wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These statistics all measure the wrong things. Let me tell you a story of two families. My step-dad was thrust into a parenting role over his siblings, a sister and a brother at an early age. The brother died early, in a train accident. My step-dad married my mother and they're still together, over 20 years later. His sister is on her second marriage. My aunt's family is constantly teetering on the edge of poverty, h…

1. This reply seems like "forget hard data, here are two anecdotes" which seems like a poor approach if you're trying to convince [good] engineers. 2. 62.9% of the world has cell phones. The global median income is likely less than $5,000 and it seems difficult to reconcile the two without many poor people - and not just in the US- owning cell phones. More to the point, do you know how hard it is to get a job or a ho…

1. If engineers don't value stories as valid for exploring and explaining reality, then they'll be doomed to lamp posting forever.

2. You're just making my point for me.

3. The access to secondary education that Americans have in is unparalleled anywhere else except in certain parts of Europe. It's been our collective obsession for decades, the subject of intense policy initiatives all over the nation. There's no political will to improve prisons, but an initiative to expand student loan funding will always be approved.

Anybody can take on $X0,000 in uncancelable debt to obtain a college degree with. The reason they can't follow through and actually improve their lives with it runs along emotional poverty lines. We can't educate our way out of this problem.