How the Valley treats experienced people • Hacker News Board

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#111

Post by daenz » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 2:48 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #99

daenz wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A quick google search "are some people lucky" will show that people very much believe in luck as a trait. Like I said, it's irrational, but people believe in it. It's a placeholder for someone who succeeds or fails abnormally, without a visible cause. Consider this: You're working at a startup that is struggling, and you're interviewing a candidate whose last 5 startups they worked at folded within 6 months of them b…

If you’re at a startup that’s struggling where hiring decisions are made on superstition, you might be the unlucky one...

There are many people involved in influencing the process to hire someone, and as I'm sure you know, many people vote "no" for the most seemingly inconsequential reasons. As superstitious as "bad luck" is, like I stated in my earlier post, it's a placeholder/heuristic for abnormal amounts of failure without a clear cause.

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#112

Post by rb808 » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 2:49 PM UTC

Is it really common to retire at 35? I'd think it would be just a few could afford that. Around here property taxes plus health insurance for a family is $50k/yr. So from 35->65 that is $1.5m. Not including cost of living of course.

Maybe the stock market has been way too successful in the last few decades. Ask a European or Japanese person about retiring early and living off the market.

(of course many 35 year olds are struggling to save for a house deposit let alone thinking about retiring)

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#113

Post by ghaff » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 2:50 PM UTC

qaq wrote: post #103

ramtatatam wrote: post #25

I had a chat with some recruiters recently and they told me there is no future in the industry for people who are 35+ years old. I'm 33 so I just smiled and walked away. I later learned the founder of this recruitment company was 26. Young kids seem to think there is no brains in older people. On the other hand I always thought the natural progression for the programmer is to move to higher abstraction level, become…

If you are 40+ you kinda expected to have a network. We have a dude pushing 70 he would be able to get a new job the day he would let people know he would consider switching a job.

>If you are 40+ you kinda expected to have a network

Every job I've had in computer-related tech since the first one out of school came from people I knew and had worked with.

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#114

Post by enraged_camel » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 2:50 PM UTC

chasing wrote: post #107

Young developers will work mindless hours and not demand proper compensation. That's why (poorly run) start-ups prefer 'em. Also, wealth is the world's shittiest metric for success. I know a ton of people with incredible skills who work rather low-paying jobs because they want to improve the world, follow a particular passion, or whatever.

>>Young developers will work mindless hours and not demand proper compensation. That's why (poorly run) start-ups prefer 'em.

Well, there are other reasons. People you hire straight out of college tend to feel grateful, and also feel like they need to prove themselves (which is true). So they are usually willing to work extra hard. This can be a good quality, if nurtured properly with guidance and training.

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#115

Post by sbov » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 2:51 PM UTC

nikanj wrote: post #69

humanrebar wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For example, I find that technical interviews for experienced developers tend to be harder, which makes me infer an "up or out" culture. A dev with 20 years of experience isn't even evaluated for normal individual contributor roles, instead they are chief code wizard or unqualified. Younger devs, especially college hires, are given more leeway to train on the job and grow into their level of aptitude and interest. A…

I think there’s an element of expectation there. The college hire might grow to be a grand wizard in 10 years, and become a massive asset to the company. It is still possible the older person is going to become a wizard later, but the question is: if they have it in them, why aren’t they a wizard already? College hires are seen as unscratched lottery tickets, older workers are seen as known variables. I’m not saying…

> It is still possible the older person is going to become a wizard later, but the question is: if they have it in them, why aren’t they a wizard already?

The vast majority of coders are not and will never be a "wizard". And that's OK. You can still be valuable to a company if you aren't a recent college graduate or a wizard.

Edit: also, be ready to pay through the nose for any actual wizard you want to hire. They can demand bucketloads of money.

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#116

Post by EliRivers » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 2:52 PM UTC

On the general theme, as I type I have a gap in my team that on paper is for a more junior, inexperienced developer; I have deliberately not starting looking for someone to fill that post, and told HR to consider it simply frozen for the moment, because right now I simply don't have the spare capacity within the team to take on an inexperienced developer. Another vacancy, for a more experienced developer, I am hiring for.

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#117

Post by rb808 » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 2:52 PM UTC

slics wrote: post #88

If one thinks 35+ is to old to code, well I have news for you. At 35+ you learn how to manage time and prioritize better. Life throws another ranch in your bucket of problems, marriage and children. When you are young, you are hired as an engineer to work 40 hours, which we all know very well that working for startups that means 80 hours or you are not putting good effort. Well with a family that’s not possible, as y…

I agree with you but if a startup really wants people working 80 hours a week, then a family man who wants to work 40 hrs isn't a good match for the firm.

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#118

Post by 11thEarlOfMar » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 2:53 PM UTC

Average age on my engineering team is about 55. Until recently, the eldest was still coding at 73.

When I look across the team, the more productive ones are those who keep their skills and tools up to date. Find a 30 year vet who can code the same routine in both Go and Python and you'll usually find a productive, dependable engineer who steers you around many gopher holes.

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#119

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 2:59 PM UTC

humanrebar wrote: post #56

zik wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of ageism isn't really visible to you unless you're the subject of it. Yes, it's real.

For example, I find that technical interviews for experienced developers tend to be harder, which makes me infer an "up or out" culture. A dev with 20 years of experience isn't even evaluated for normal individual contributor roles, instead they are chief code wizard or unqualified. Younger devs, especially college hires, are given more leeway to train on the job and grow into their level of aptitude and interest. A…

[deleted]

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#120

Post by sureaboutthis » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 2:59 PM UTC

user5994461 wrote: post #61

sureaboutthis wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's funny is that many young people in the industry now would never think of staying at one place for 3-5 years cause they don't want to invest the time. A neighbor of mine is in his 60s and lost his job the same way. He can run rings around anyone I know but he can't find a job or even get an interview. Bjarne Stroustrup, the C++ creator, wrote a blog post about going for a job interview and being told he "didn't…

Not being able to have an interview is a red flag. Companies can't tell the age from a resume. If they can, take off the date of birth, remove the year on your degrees and don't list experiences beyond 20 years.

Then you show up for the interview and people still can't tell your age? Isn't that a waste of time?