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Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

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Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

#91

Post by mindcrime »

adrianN wrote: post #68
rixrax wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Just had friends visiting. Their teenage son had had his wisdom tooth pulled last week. Dentist had then given him (as a standard practice?) prescription for Ibuprofen (800mg tabs?) AND some opioid based pain killer! Needless to say, latter they said went directly to trash after they realized what it contained and for ibuprofen they halved the dosage. To me and his parents this was pain management gone way over…

Move to Europe where we don't get as many drugs prescribed? I think the only time you get opioids is after major surgery. Personally I don't know anybody who had to take them.

Definitely varies by individual, and by the nature of the situation. My personal experience, as somebody who considers himself to have a pretty high threshold of pain tolerance, is that I never needed any of the Vicodin I was prescribed after wisdom tooth removal... but I can't imagine how I would have survived without Oxycodone in the first week after rotator cuff surgery.

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

#92

Post by whatshisface »

eaandkw wrote: post #22
Alex3917 wrote: post #5

600mg per day is an enormous dose, albeit not especially uncommon. I’d be more interested though in the effects of, say, 200 - 400mg per week.

Clearly you have never been in the USMC. In hind sight it was pretty stupid but I have taken up to 1600mg per day for several days/ weeks in a row. We pretty much call the 800mg tablets grunt candy.

What is happening that gets everyone so inflamed? If you take a painkiller and go right back to the activity that damaged you you are begging for permanent injury.

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

#93

Post by inferiorhuman »

adrianN wrote: post #68
rixrax wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Just had friends visiting. Their teenage son had had his wisdom tooth pulled last week. Dentist had then given him (as a standard practice?) prescription for Ibuprofen (800mg tabs?) AND some opioid based pain killer! Needless to say, latter they said went directly to trash after they realized what it contained and for ibuprofen they halved the dosage. To me and his parents this was pain management gone way over…

Move to Europe where we don't get as many drugs prescribed? I think the only time you get opioids is after major surgery. Personally I don't know anybody who had to take them.

So you mean like Spain where 800mg tabs of ibuprofen are over-the-counter?

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

#94

Post by stewbrew »

arikr wrote: post #81
iandanforth wrote: post #16

Along with the high sustained dosage others have mentioned the small sample size (14 in the experimental group) should be noted.

This is worth reading: The "Unreliable Small-Sample" Misconception https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2008/11/9/656465/- > My point here is that arguing that the sample is inaccurate simply because of how large or small it is is not correct. The size of the sample actually makes very little difference in how applicable the results are to the population. It simply makes the range of possible results smaller as the size…

Since the article doesn't mention test power (and should it be for the reason of rebuttal of that Pearson-Neyman concept) I don't think it's a worth read. Sorry.

"studies with small sample sizes can be very valid."

They could be with a certain probability but (unless you believe in a very strong prior) you can't know with sufficient certainty.

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

#95

Post by devwastaken »

arikr wrote: post #81
iandanforth wrote: post #16

Along with the high sustained dosage others have mentioned the small sample size (14 in the experimental group) should be noted.

This is worth reading: The "Unreliable Small-Sample" Misconception https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2008/11/9/656465/- > My point here is that arguing that the sample is inaccurate simply because of how large or small it is is not correct. The size of the sample actually makes very little difference in how applicable the results are to the population. It simply makes the range of possible results smaller as the size…

Sample size is related to the conclusions you can draw. If their goal is that ibuprofen has this effect, then 15 can be enough given the specific effects they are getting. If their goal is more complex, say that ibuprofen reduces fertility, that's be a lot harder if the effect wasn't massive and well reproduceable.

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

#96

Post by drb91 »

arikr wrote: post #81
iandanforth wrote: post #16

Along with the high sustained dosage others have mentioned the small sample size (14 in the experimental group) should be noted.

This is worth reading: The "Unreliable Small-Sample" Misconception https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2008/11/9/656465/- > My point here is that arguing that the sample is inaccurate simply because of how large or small it is is not correct. The size of the sample actually makes very little difference in how applicable the results are to the population. It simply makes the range of possible results smaller as the size…

Yes, this is why my anecdotes are proof only I see reality accurately.

In seriousness, this is a lazy claim when you could have actually addressed the study in question. Since you did not, I assume you have no supporting observations.

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

#97

Post by yomly »

devwastaken wrote: post #95
arikr wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is worth reading: The "Unreliable Small-Sample" Misconception https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2008/11/9/656465/- > My point here is that arguing that the sample is inaccurate simply because of how large or small it is is not correct. The size of the sample actually makes very little difference in how applicable the results are to the population. It simply makes the range of possible results smaller as the size…

Sample size is related to the conclusions you can draw. If their goal is that ibuprofen has this effect, then 15 can be enough given the specific effects they are getting. If their goal is more complex, say that ibuprofen reduces fertility, that's be a lot harder if the effect wasn't massive and well reproduceable.

I find this topic hard to comment on specifically, but I think you are probably on the right lines about specificity of the observed phenomenon being of key here.

Using a ridiculous example "for a sample set of 10, the author found that exposure to fire causes burns" would hopefully not draw similar sampling concerns but as I don't know this subject matter deeply, I can't comment whether it is true for this case

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

#98

Post by gamma-male »

scjr wrote: post #34
gonyea wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get what you're saying, but ibuprofen and acetaminophen save lives. The problem is the western (American?) tendency to self-medicate and to over medicate with really potent stuff. That shouldn't be as normal as it is.

I am not aware of any common uses of Ibuprofen and Acetominophen that saves lives?

That was what I used (nothing else) when I got H1N1. I thought I was going to die but I made it.

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

#99

Post by celrod »

arikr wrote: post #81
iandanforth wrote: post #16

Along with the high sustained dosage others have mentioned the small sample size (14 in the experimental group) should be noted.

This is worth reading: The "Unreliable Small-Sample" Misconception https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2008/11/9/656465/- > My point here is that arguing that the sample is inaccurate simply because of how large or small it is is not correct. The size of the sample actually makes very little difference in how applicable the results are to the population. It simply makes the range of possible results smaller as the size…

Andrew Gelman put it very well here: https://andrewgelman.com/2017/02/06/not-kill-statistical-sig...

Or, if you want to some it all up in a single graph: https://andrewgelman.com/2014/11/17/power-06-looks-like-get-... (although your experiments hopefully have power much greater than 0.06)

The gist of the point: If your sample size is small, significant results are likely to (sometimes vastly) overestimate the true effect size, and there is a non-negligible chance that the effect size is actually estimated in the wrong direction.

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

#100

Post by wallace_f »

whatshisface wrote: post #92
eaandkw wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly you have never been in the USMC. In hind sight it was pretty stupid but I have taken up to 1600mg per day for several days/ weeks in a row. We pretty much call the 800mg tablets grunt candy.

What is happening that gets everyone so inflamed? If you take a painkiller and go right back to the activity that damaged you you are begging for permanent injury.

It's not very strange. 600mg/day "as needed" is the standard otc dose.
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