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Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

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Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

#81

Post by arikr »

iandanforth wrote: post #16

Along with the high sustained dosage others have mentioned the small sample size (14 in the experimental group) should be noted.

This is worth reading:

The "Unreliable Small-Sample" Misconception

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2008/11/9/656465/-

> My point here is that arguing that the sample is inaccurate simply because of how large or small it is is not correct. The size of the sample actually makes very little difference in how applicable the results are to the population. It simply makes the range of possible results smaller as the size of the sample increases.

I've noticed a trend on reddit and HN where commenters will point out small sample sizes, often with the direct or indirect implication that this makes the study mostly invalid. I believe that's false - studies with small sample sizes can be very valid. The smaller the sample size the larger the effect size needs to be for it to be a statistically significant result, but a small sample size by itself isn't bad.

And I think that the internet would be able to better appreciate research if more people were aware of the small sample size misconception.

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

#82

Post by skellera »

dilyevsky wrote: post #74

Really cool. I’ve been hearing for years now in the athletic community that ibuprofen “kills gains”. Thought it was just a fud. Turns out - likely not.

I thought that’s based on the anti inflammatory effects of it. I don’t personally understand it but inflammation is supposed to help muscle growth.

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

#83

Post by phil21 »

adrianN wrote: post #68
rixrax wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Just had friends visiting. Their teenage son had had his wisdom tooth pulled last week. Dentist had then given him (as a standard practice?) prescription for Ibuprofen (800mg tabs?) AND some opioid based pain killer! Needless to say, latter they said went directly to trash after they realized what it contained and for ibuprofen they halved the dosage. To me and his parents this was pain management gone way over…

Move to Europe where we don't get as many drugs prescribed? I think the only time you get opioids is after major surgery. Personally I don't know anybody who had to take them.

No opioids after my wisdom teeth extraction would have resulted in potentially suicide. The pain was unbearable, and 3-4 days of hydrocodone was absolutely proscribed.

There is nothing wrong with opiates being used for acute pain relief. They are a modern miracle when put to such uses.

The problem comes when you start using them for long-term pain relief - a use-case in which they are neither appropriate or effective.

A typical 2-3 day prescription after major dental (or other) work is not remotely a problem, and I really have no idea why this is where the focus is. It's always been long-term abuse as the actual problem - the weird overreaction over a few days use for acute pain is utterly absurd and only hurts people in some bizzare way for folks to feel they are "helping" fix the abuse problem.

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

#84

Post by SubiculumCode »

snibss wrote: post #65
SubiculumCode wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those downvoting parent please see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5015806/ And others. True or not, parent wasn't just making up the empathy-painkiller association.

The point being: it's a psychological study, in relation to behavior and emotion, which cannot be measured with NEARLY the same degree of ease or precision as sex-related endocrine effects. It's behavior, and thus potentially non-replicable. It's soft science at best. Is someone being a jerk? Is it some strange long term NSAID side-effect? Why are they being so cold and callous? Is this just an artifact of social bia…

As a cognitive neuroscientist you may guess my opinion about your loosely constructed and ranting 'argument' about my field of study. While I will not vouch for the study I cited above, I will vouch for the scientific integrity of my colleagues.

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

#85

Post by SamReidHughes »

arikr wrote: post #81
iandanforth wrote: post #16

Along with the high sustained dosage others have mentioned the small sample size (14 in the experimental group) should be noted.

This is worth reading: The "Unreliable Small-Sample" Misconception https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2008/11/9/656465/- > My point here is that arguing that the sample is inaccurate simply because of how large or small it is is not correct. The size of the sample actually makes very little difference in how applicable the results are to the population. It simply makes the range of possible results smaller as the size…

There's also temporal sample size: you can infer that A causes B if B happens very soon after A, and nothing else around that time might cause B. For example, if A is exposure to a chemical and B is an allergic reaction.

Edit: A great example is that stomach ulcer guy.

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

#86

Post by acct1771 »

tejasmanohar wrote: post #42
acct1771 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And acetaminophen reduces empathy, according to some convincing research. What's wrong with cannabis-derived solutions, again?

What about it reduces empathy? My uneducated guess would be that it's unrelated to _which_ pain medicine you choose. Also, FWIW, in the past, I tried both CBD and THC without any luck where Ibuprofen helped so it's certainly not 1:1

See other response.

What forms did you try? What brands? Were they lab tested?

Like any "new" drug - there's a lot of nonsense floating around.

Please don't simply buy CBD capsules from Walmart, and say "this shit doesn't work for me".

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

#87

Post by acct1771 »

complector wrote: post #54
acct1771 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And acetaminophen reduces empathy, according to some convincing research. What's wrong with cannabis-derived solutions, again?

[flagged]

If you'd rather your kid step on others to succeed than fail, don't have a kid.

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

#88

Post by cityofdelusion »

rixrax wrote: post #64
gonyea wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get what you're saying, but ibuprofen and acetaminophen save lives. The problem is the western (American?) tendency to self-medicate and to over medicate with really potent stuff. That shouldn't be as normal as it is.

This. Just had friends visiting. Their teenage son had had his wisdom tooth pulled last week. Dentist had then given him (as a standard practice?) prescription for Ibuprofen (800mg tabs?) AND some opioid based pain killer! Needless to say, latter they said went directly to trash after they realized what it contained and for ibuprofen they halved the dosage. To me and his parents this was pain management gone way over…

I just had wisdom teeth extraction a few weeks back. I was given 800mg Ibuprofen and Norco. The pain was bad enough to wake me up at night when the meds wore off — and I did take both. Oral surgery is no joke. It took me about 8 days to taper to 400mg Ibuprofen.

These doctors don’t just give pills out randomly, they do it for a reason based on evidence and science. A side note is that my pharmacist made it very clear to only use the painkillers as necessary. You should always consult the doctor and pharmacist after major surgery to clarify these things if needed.

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

#89

Post by gregw2 »

emersonrsantos wrote: post #31

Ibuprofen induced liver toxiticy: https://livertox.nih.gov/Ibuprofen.htm "Rates of serum aminotransferase elevations during low dose, chronic ibuprofen therapy are comparable to those that occur with placebo controls (0.4%). However, higher rates of ALT elevations occur with high, full doses of 2,400 to 3,200 mg daily (up to 16%)."

Speaking of liver toxicity, acetominophen/tylenol and alcohol can kill you. Not in the common case but if you are maxing out the acetaminophen for a prolonged period and drink and stop drinking, you should get educated on the dynamics and side effects. I was shocked to only find out about this midlife when my wife was on painkillers post surgery for an extended period and was using both painkillers and alcohol to self medicate. And her doc noticed some concerning liver results which later turned out fine. Be careful out there!

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

#90

Post by mindcrime »

rixrax wrote: post #64
gonyea wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get what you're saying, but ibuprofen and acetaminophen save lives. The problem is the western (American?) tendency to self-medicate and to over medicate with really potent stuff. That shouldn't be as normal as it is.

This. Just had friends visiting. Their teenage son had had his wisdom tooth pulled last week. Dentist had then given him (as a standard practice?) prescription for Ibuprofen (800mg tabs?) AND some opioid based pain killer! Needless to say, latter they said went directly to trash after they realized what it contained and for ibuprofen they halved the dosage. To me and his parents this was pain management gone way over…

There's probably nothing wrong with taking 800mg of ibuprofen at least for a short period of time. Ibuprofen can have some negative effects from long-term use though.

Regarding opioid based pain-killers... for all the negative attention they get, they're also usually fine for most people - when used as directed and, again, for a short-period of time.

Not everybody who takes a few Oxycodone tablets winds up addicted and then reduced to using heroin to get their fix.

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