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The next big blue collar job is coding (2017)

wired.com

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Re: The next big blue collar job is coding (2017)

#81

Post by InGodsName »

red_hare wrote: post #13

I buy it. Two of my most blue collar friends just made the jump. One a mechanic the other a deli worker, via bootcamps in their late-20s. Neither hated their jobs, but they also couldn’t afford to move out of their parents houses on those incomes. For now, they seem to be doing “blue collar” programming work. Mostly freelance basic front-end and rails development. The question to me is if they broaden their scope int…

My girlfriend who is nurse basically by training, took bootcamp and now she makes react frontend + Prototype in Sketch which is what she really enjoys.

She told me this area of work is really good as you can learn from YouTube and put it to practise right away without worrying about that you'd screw up.

Re: The next big blue collar job is coding (2017)

#82

Post by paulie_a »

throwanem wrote: post #28

I get that there's a lot of people here who don't want to think about the work they do becoming commoditized, and I get why. But I've been in the same line of work for twenty years now, and the reality is that it really just isn't that hard or that special. The only part of it that's uniquely difficult is dealing with complexity, and complexity is something that a skilled senior can largely manage for juniors while t…

There seems to be a lot of elitism. Most coding is nothing special or particularly hard. Within a short period of time most people could get up to speed to fill a lot of the roles. You don't even need a college degree of any kind.

Senior level is different but that takes at least ten years in my opinion. And senior requires a lot of mentoring of juniors. Again this is only my opinion, if you aren't actively mentoring. You are a mid

Re: The next big blue collar job is coding (2017)

#83

Post by InGodsName »

brlewis wrote: post #60
talltimtom wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Even highly trained software engineers can barely get security correct. What makes this journalist think somebody with a few years of high school programming can do any better?” Why would they have to be better? You just made very point here. Some high schooler with a boot camp can do just as well as many “highly trained software engineers”.

First, why don't we fix the cost of medical care by letting vocational schools train doctors? After all, there are high-profile medical errors and the world goes on. (In case the sarcasm isn't obvious, my point is that the existence of errors by professionals doesn't mean the entire system would be just as good if staffed by non-professionals.)

Does most of the software involve mission critical work where failure means death or loss of vital organs?

Outside some key areas, most of the software work is not that important.

So this comparison isn't fair.

My girlfriend does React/JS apps for local businesses and she's teaching some other women in the neighbor too.

No she doesn't know how webpack works but she has learned enough to produce results.

Whenever she gets stuck, she looks for Stackoverflow or GitHub issue links and 80% of the time finds the answer there.

Rest of the time she gives up on a tool and uses other tool which doesn't suffer from the same issue.

Sorry i used to think i am very smart because i am a programmer but it turns out others were simply not introduced to the programming way. Programming is wayy easier now with all the tooling/guides/courses available now.

Re: The next big blue collar job is coding (2017)

#84

Post by throwanem »

brlewis wrote: post #79
throwanem wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, we kind of do, in physician assistants. Having in recent years received most of my medical care, including emergency care, from PAs, and only rarely seen an MD, I have to say, I'm not sure you're doing a great job supporting your case - the care I've received from PAs has in no respect been below the standard I'd expect to receive from MDs.

I don't think the "blue collar" label applies to physician assistants. https://www.google.com/search?q=physician+assistant+training

No, but it doesn't matter. The comparison between a doctor and a physician assistant is quite closely parallel with that between a "conventional" and a boot-camp-trained SDE. Especially since our field has no certification requirements, minimum necessary training, or indeed any qualifications whatsoever beyond simply demonstrating the ability to do the work!

Re: The next big blue collar job is coding (2017)

#85

Post by Forge36 »

talltimtom wrote: post #31

Programmers overestimate how complex coding to solve problems actually is. Look at data science, you have tons of people with years worth of domain specific knowledge picking up enough python/ML on a weekend course to outperform those with PhDs in computerscience. And sure those people won’t be able to write their own implementation of lisp in C, but they don’t have to, that’s not as valuable. I feel like we have Eng…

I believe coding is easy when it's to assist in your own work. Programming at scale is a different problem. I'm not certain, however CS jobs appear to reflect this on the two different pay scales (my work has two different programming roles with one compensated at almost twice the rate)

Re: The next big blue collar job is coding (2017)

#86

Post by notacoward »

I think the author is projecting a bit. After all, the skills needed to write an opinion piece for Wired are darn near universal, and supply has exceeded demand by so much for so long that such writing is practically blue-collar. I contend that the skills needed to make a career out of programming are just a little less accessible or familiar to most people. Being a programmer might be comparable to being a plumber or electrician, which are "blue collar" but also very respectable and often profitable professions worth aspiring to, but it's never going to be like the kind of unskilled labor that people line up at Home Depot - or Wired - to do.

Re: The next big blue collar job is coding (2017)

#87

Post by matte_black »

faissaloo wrote: post #69
matte_black wrote: post #12

Frontend javascript programming is already blue collar. Very little science left in most tasks, most of the time you are just smashing together packages and declaratively building interfaces to the point that most of the hard work has been done for you.

I'd say CRUD type stuff is moving in that direction too.

Yes, the more standardized something is the more it just becomes an assembly line with very little room for discovering creative solutions.

Re: The next big blue collar job is coding (2017)

#88

Post by brlewis »

InGodsName wrote: post #83
brlewis wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, why don't we fix the cost of medical care by letting vocational schools train doctors? After all, there are high-profile medical errors and the world goes on. (In case the sarcasm isn't obvious, my point is that the existence of errors by professionals doesn't mean the entire system would be just as good if staffed by non-professionals.)

Does most of the software involve mission critical work where failure means death or loss of vital organs? Outside some key areas, most of the software work is not that important. So this comparison isn't fair. My girlfriend does React/JS apps for local businesses and she's teaching some other women in the neighbor too. No she doesn't know how webpack works but she has learned enough to produce results. Whenever she…

I think it's great that many other people are taking an interest in programming and doing it. And it's true that to think oneself very smart for being able to program is the wrong attitude. But this thread that you're replying in started with this particular assertion from the article:

"But any blue-collar coder will be plenty qualified to sling Java­Script for their local bank."

An app that's secure enough for a bank is unfortunately not something one can make without a lot of training. Maybe someday.

Re: The next big blue collar job is coding (2017)

#89

Post by anm89 »

alistairSH wrote: post #15

"But any blue-collar coder will be plenty qualified to sling Java­Script for their local bank. " Even highly trained software engineers can barely get security correct. What makes this journalist think somebody with a few years of high school programming can do any better? I'm not sure I buy the "blue collar coder" prediction. At least not in the US. That type of work is currently outsourced to India and parts of Eas…

Not only can they not get security right, I have seen MANY people slinging Javascript at banks who are career programmers with CS degrees who can't get slinging JS right. I'm not talking total incompetence or can't fizzbuzz but people who were consistently unable to deliver on midsize or larger features and who's code is unreadable and unmaintainable.

The problem with the blue collar coder concept is that there is a lot more art(or design) required to write code than to work in a factory or mining(which I'm sure also has an art to it but I'm guessing is much less conceptual and abstract). Unfortunately I don't see it happening.

Re: The next big blue collar job is coding (2017)

#90

Post by rmah »

faissaloo wrote: post #69
matte_black wrote: post #12

Frontend javascript programming is already blue collar. Very little science left in most tasks, most of the time you are just smashing together packages and declaratively building interfaces to the point that most of the hard work has been done for you.

I'd say CRUD type stuff is moving in that direction too.

That's what they said in 1988 when I started my career. Seriously, the same sort as the article writer were saying the exact same thing in the 1990's. Nothing has changed. They were wrong then and are wrong now.

Someday, they may be right, but that doesn't make their "analysis" any more valid. Broken clock and all that, don't ya know.

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