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Rome in Ruins

nytimes.com

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Re: Rome in Ruins

#31

Post by i_am_nomad »

danans wrote: post #23
sloanedavids wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It gets worse. I had hoped to show off Silicon Valley to them as a place that is, well, pretty awesome. Having spent their entire lives in Germany though, they didn’t come away very impressed. When we took the Caltrain from SF down to San Jose they laughed, saying how the rickety slow, old train reminded them of the Soviet-era trains they had in East Germany in the 70’s. I couldn’t disagree. Later, we took BART. Let’…

BART is finally deploying their new cleaner and modern trains, but the old cars are indeed well past their expiry date, farther past than any trains I've seen in Western Europe. That may be because until recently, in much of the Bay Area, people of even moderate means often avoided transit at all costs. So the investment and maintenance went to roads, not transit.

Except the Bay Area has literally the worst-maintained roads of any metropolitan area in the country.

Re: Rome in Ruins

#32

Post by inferiorhuman »

phyller wrote: post #6

This is how I see New York City. Living there I was so used to it, then I went to San Diego for a wedding, couldn't believe my eyes when I saw people walking around outside barefoot. Because everything was clean, why not? Everyone else wore sandals, I was the only one wearing shoes. I came back to NYC early Monday morning, rode the subway from JFK and had to walk through Times Square to get where I was going. Times S…

New York, midtown specifically, doesn't even come close to how disgusting San Francisco is. Hell, San Francisco's mayor — London Breed, told off the last tourist who complained to her about how much litter there is in San Francisco.

Re: Rome in Ruins

#33

Post by pionerkotik »

I have been in around 20 countries in Europe and Italy was the second-worst (after Georgia) in terms of rubbish.

The problem is not only with Rome. I have lived for three years in Milan and it is as dirty. Turin is only marginally better. In fact, on some days the road from Milan's Bergamo airport to the city was so dirty that it looked almost as if in a third-world country.

Interestingly, from my experience there was very little dog poo on the streets. Italians always seemed to painstakingly collect the poo of their pets and put it into rubbish bins. No such enthusiasm with other types of rubbish.

Re: Rome in Ruins

#34

Post by de_watcher »

danans wrote: post #24
sloanedavids wrote: post #15

This description of Rome is how I see San Francisco. Formerly such a beautiful city, now all I see is garbage. Recently my grandparents, who had never been outside of Germany before, visited me in San Francisco. As we left SFO by car and drove into the city, they eagerly took in the new sights. Everything they saw was new to them. After a long period of silence, they asked me, with a certain level of disbelief in the…

What they perhaps didn't see is that the US has a higher rate of personal car ownership. People don't like to walk over garbage, but they don't mind driving over it to an extent. The areas with trash are the ones where people of means drive and the walkers are mostly poor, like freeway underpasses.

Yes, it's all about the Gini index - the amount of inequality in the society.

Re: Rome in Ruins

#35

Post by Frondo »

bobthepanda wrote: post #27
mrunkel wrote: post #22

I'm always struck about how many people complain about trash, but seemingly so few actually do anything about it in their neighborhoods. While preventing littering is a laudable goal, the solution is achievable by all of us. Just pick up a few pieces and ay and throw it away. If everyone who complained about littering did that, the problem would be solved. Sure, there would still be litterers, but at least the neighb…

This helps to a point, but people only have so much time and can only do so much if the system is systemically broken as it is in Rome, where they are simply not able to process trash even when placed in dumpsters. Plus if the trash contains lots of things like broken glass or sharps, it might be dangerous for untrained citizens to dispose of trash on the street. America hasn’t really made a dent in domestic poverty…

American charitable donations are only so high because church tithing counts.

When's the last time you saw a church organize a street cleaning party, though? (or opening its tax-free building to the homeless?)

Re: Rome in Ruins

#36

Post by lordnacho »

I've driven into Italy from Switzerland on a few occasions. It's like one of those MMOs where you know you're in a new zone immediately. Even though you're driving you can tell exactly where the border is, not just where the official building for the import/export inspectors are, but the exact place where the Swiss asphalt ends and the Italian begins.

Switzerland: Asphalt is perfect. No potholes, it might be a Formula One track you're on. There's no weeds sticking up. There's no plants growing over the signs or the barriers on the side. Signs themselves are pristine, like they were made today. No debris such as tyres or hubcaps on the roadway, though you do cross a piece of trash every now and again. You also come across the maintenance vehicles that keep all these things clean.

Italy: Not like that.

Most of Europe is like this. Germany is pretty good. France is a bit less decayed than Italy. Denmark is better but still weeds, trash, and potholes. UK is like Denmark, not perfect but you don't get that sense of failed state that you get crossing into Italy.

One social/political thing that always comes to mind is they could hire people to clean things up. They wouldn't be highly paid, but people on low income getting paid could be good for the economy. Italy and France also have reasonably high unemployment rates, so there must be some people who would be willing? And they'd be providing a public good: everyone wants to live in a clean country.

Re: Rome in Ruins

#37

Post by fiblye »

lordnacho wrote: post #36

I've driven into Italy from Switzerland on a few occasions. It's like one of those MMOs where you know you're in a new zone immediately. Even though you're driving you can tell exactly where the border is, not just where the official building for the import/export inspectors are, but the exact place where the Swiss asphalt ends and the Italian begins. Switzerland: Asphalt is perfect. No potholes, it might be a Formul…

I've heard a lot from other Americans about thinking France was a dump when they visited, and I really thought they were exaggerating. When I visited, I was actually pretty surprised to find it just how they described it. I wasn't sure if it was just that it was different, but I guess it's nice knowing at least some Europeans seem to agree.

What really shocked me was how often I've heard terrible things about China from Euros/Americans, but going and seeing brand new, pristine streets, no litter in the rivers and streams, and not even cigarette butts on the sidewalks. I know dirty areas exist, because they do everywhere and China is the world's manufacturing capital, but they're doing great with their urban areas these days. But most Western cities make me depressed these days. You can see what they used to be, but they feel like they're wasting away.

Re: Rome in Ruins

#38

Post by paganel »

lordnacho wrote: post #36

I've driven into Italy from Switzerland on a few occasions. It's like one of those MMOs where you know you're in a new zone immediately. Even though you're driving you can tell exactly where the border is, not just where the official building for the import/export inspectors are, but the exact place where the Swiss asphalt ends and the Italian begins. Switzerland: Asphalt is perfect. No potholes, it might be a Formul…

> but the exact place where the Swiss asphalt ends and the Italian begins.

Not sure why you were being downvoted because that was my exact experience as I drove into Italy from Switzerland using the Simplon pass two summers ago. I remember taking a driving pause on the side of a “statale” one hour after having passed the border and I was amazed about how much garbage there was (“this looks exactly like back home in Romania”, I said to myself) while the same sort of stop I had encountered earlier during the trip on the Swiss shore of Lake Constanz was as clean as a four-star hotel bathroom.

On the other hand Italy is the most beautiful place in the world for history and architecture buffs such as myself, I daydream about visiting different parts of it basically every other day (I’ve already visited Rome, Turin, the shores of Lago Maggiore and Trieste, but there are a limited number of summer holidays in one’s life, plus the money eventually runs out).

Re: Rome in Ruins

#39

Post by aristophenes »

pram wrote: post #9
phyller wrote: post #6

This is how I see New York City. Living there I was so used to it, then I went to San Diego for a wedding, couldn't believe my eyes when I saw people walking around outside barefoot. Because everything was clean, why not? Everyone else wore sandals, I was the only one wearing shoes. I came back to NYC early Monday morning, rode the subway from JFK and had to walk through Times Square to get where I was going. Times S…

Yeah I was in NYC for the first time this year and I was impressed by the filth and general dilapidation. The subways are exceptionally dirty, and the stations/trains along the A line seemed to be in advanced decay. It’s nowhere as bad as Chicago though ;P

It’s not that they don’t pay people to clean up. I used to get on the A at the very first stop. The train would be parked until it was time to go, and there was a whole crew of cleaners. The cleaning went like this, the workers would start in each separate car, when the doors opened they’d walk in, then walk towards each other trailing their mops, sit down and start talking. That was the cleaning that the MTA was paying for.

This used to drive me nuts. Then one day a high level supervisor came on the train, and a group of the cleaners were in the car I was sitting in. He sat down with them and proceeded to explain how if they went to this certain building and filled out some paperwork they would start getting paid $40 per hour. He was going around, not inspecting work, but on behalf of their union, explaining how to work the system.

The MTA is the worst, and taught me the dangers of some unions. I never saw an MTA employee working. Once I saw 4 MTA employees standing around as two contractors changed light bulbs. NYC has a heavily utilized subway system, and it definitely isn’t free. But they can’t even pay the expenses for maintenance let alone improvements without tax payer support because of these leeches. This is why NYC and elsewhere are like this, people not doing what they are paid to do.

Re: Rome in Ruins

#40

Post by tokyodude »

fiblye wrote: post #37
lordnacho wrote: post #36

I've driven into Italy from Switzerland on a few occasions. It's like one of those MMOs where you know you're in a new zone immediately. Even though you're driving you can tell exactly where the border is, not just where the official building for the import/export inspectors are, but the exact place where the Swiss asphalt ends and the Italian begins. Switzerland: Asphalt is perfect. No potholes, it might be a Formul…

I've heard a lot from other Americans about thinking France was a dump when they visited, and I really thought they were exaggerating. When I visited, I was actually pretty surprised to find it just how they described it. I wasn't sure if it was just that it was different, but I guess it's nice knowing at least some Europeans seem to agree. What really shocked me was how often I've heard terrible things about China f…

China has cleaned up a lot in the last few years. Went to Shanghai in like 2009 and again in 2017 and it was like night and day. Was dirty, now clean. No idea if it was luck or cultural changes or government mandate or season or what.

As for Paris one of the earlier episodes of "This American Life" is basically about how Paris's reputation is from like 100-120 years ago.

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/165/americans-in-paris

It's not the same place it was but it's still promoted as though it is. San Francisco seems similar to me. Much of what SF is famous for is from 100 years ago or more.

While we're on the topic of out dated things. I was amazed that Paris Disneyland has a Hollywood themed park of which a not small percent of which is dedicated to things that were famous in Hollywood 80+ years ago. Maybe people visiting actually know about that stuff but I'd be little surprised that references to movies from the 1930s are still relevant to most guests?

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