China Cracks Down on Churches • Hacker News Board

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#211

Post by Fins » Tue, Dec 25, 2018, 9:33 PM UTC

intralizeee wrote: post #174

“Writing from the perspective of a person who literally had a life ruined by religious ideology impairing the mental judgement of parental figures. This is literally one of the best things I've read in my life. Going to be unpopular opinion because of people indoctrinated into freedom of expression but why not. Religious ideology has done more damage than terrorism to LGBT people. The result has lead to suicides and…

Communists ruined (often permanently and quite fatally) lives of far more people. And they don't like the LGBT tribe much either. Short of this being a harbinger of the last communist being hanged with the guts of the last christian (with apologies to Voltaire) very soon, I fail to see how this could be "one of the best things I've read in my life".

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#212

Post by rohit2412 » Tue, Dec 25, 2018, 9:41 PM UTC

starbeast wrote: post #184

rohit2412 wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont think new atheism proponents like Dawkins and hitchens propose religious persecution like communists. Looking for social change towards atheism, like a third-wave atheism is very different from imposing atheism on people.

They don't propose it explicitly, they just lead people to it. Once you have started believing that religion is the root of all evil, you do not have to travel very far at all to find yourself persecuting the religious. The position they espouse isn't just a serious logical mistake, it is a terrible moral one.

Then you also lead people to theocracy.

There are positions one can take between "all religions are peaceful, good, and true", and "kill the religious"

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#213

Post by rohit2412 » Tue, Dec 25, 2018, 9:47 PM UTC

olcor wrote: post #197

rohit2412 wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an atheist Indian (Hindu family), I think ideologies can be criticized. If you can paint Nazis and white supremacy beliefs in a broad brush, so can you criticize religions which unequivocally sentence people to hell for leaving the religion.

I’m not arguing against criticizing ideologies. I have no intention of republishing what the flagged parent said; I merely pointed out that the criticism needs to be valid, properly sourced and have understanding of nuances. This includes criticism of white supremacists and nazis.

Fair enough. I am a bit fed up of hearing "all religions are equal and peaceful", something which is objectively false.

I have been flagged once and can be banned for "religious flamewar". I didn't know hackernews has blasphemy laws. So I won't comment anymore.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#214

Post by starbeast » Tue, Dec 25, 2018, 10:07 PM UTC

rohit2412 wrote: post #212

starbeast wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't propose it explicitly, they just lead people to it. Once you have started believing that religion is the root of all evil, you do not have to travel very far at all to find yourself persecuting the religious. The position they espouse isn't just a serious logical mistake, it is a terrible moral one.

Then you also lead people to theocracy. There are positions one can take between "all religions are peaceful, good, and true", and "kill the religious"

You don't lead people to theocracy by warning against killing for dogma. On the other hand, creating dogmas about religion being the source of all evil can have pretty awful consequences.

There isn't a simple road between the two positions you gave, there is an entire territory.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#215

Post by Farradfahren » Tue, Dec 25, 2018, 10:12 PM UTC

lgleason wrote: post #4

This is why we need to sever economic ties with China. The more we support this the worse this type of thing will intensify, including beyond China's borders....and it won't stop at just Christianity, they have targeted Islam and, Buddhists etc. as well.

They even target local mystic movements such as falun gong.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#216

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Dec 25, 2018, 10:24 PM UTC

thereare5lights wrote: post #208

dang wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no way for HN to be immune from macro trends. The macro trend right now, unfortunately, is polarization between China and the West. As I'm sure you've noticed, this has been manifesting dramatically in Western media over the past months. Since the audience here is mostly Western (50% US, 30% Europe, 7% Canada plus Australia, IIRC), it's inevitably going to identify more with one side than the other. We modera…

You can absolutely eliminate it, you just don't want to because it would cost too much. I suppose macro trends would also explain why black social issues always get flagged on HN as well.

[deleted]

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#217

Post by dang » Tue, Dec 25, 2018, 10:26 PM UTC

thereare5lights wrote: post #208

dang wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no way for HN to be immune from macro trends. The macro trend right now, unfortunately, is polarization between China and the West. As I'm sure you've noticed, this has been manifesting dramatically in Western media over the past months. Since the audience here is mostly Western (50% US, 30% Europe, 7% Canada plus Australia, IIRC), it's inevitably going to identify more with one side than the other. We modera…

You can absolutely eliminate it, you just don't want to because it would cost too much. I suppose macro trends would also explain why black social issues always get flagged on HN as well.

Eliminate a Western audience looking at things from a Western perspective? That is an excessive idea of what moderators can do. We are janitors.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#218

Post by thereare5lights » Tue, Dec 25, 2018, 10:33 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #217

thereare5lights wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can absolutely eliminate it, you just don't want to because it would cost too much. I suppose macro trends would also explain why black social issues always get flagged on HN as well.

Eliminate a Western audience looking at things from a Western perspective? That is an excessive idea of what moderators can do. We are janitors.

You can do something so that black social issues links do not get removed.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#219

Post by Farradfahren » Tue, Dec 25, 2018, 10:40 PM UTC

throwaway2048 wrote: post #171

phreeza wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

10 years ago or so the story was the opposite: economic progress will lead to a rising middle class, which will lead to more political freedoms.

Not sure why this is being downvoted, It was absolutely the case being made for why we should be economically involved in China, however it turned out to be dead wrong. https://www.economist.com/free-exchange/2007/08/31/capitalis...

[dead]

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#220

Post by kadendogthing » Tue, Dec 25, 2018, 10:43 PM UTC

dvtrn wrote: post #131

kadendogthing wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have significantly misunderstood the context of the conversation. No one has said that Christians aren't persecuted around the world. No one has even implied this was the case. Because people don't hold such opinions. He is implying that people hold these opinions. I am asking for some kind of substantial material validating the frequency of such opinions. It helps to respond to the actual conversation instead of…

I am asking for some kind of substantial material validating the frequency of such opinions. What are the odds that I could go to ten different blogs from ten different Joe's from across the internet saying how bad it is for Christians in the world, come back here, link them, that you'll backpedal more to say that the sources provided aren't authoritative enough?

The opinion he thinks people hold isn't common (or even a thing people hold as an idea in any capacity), it's a contrived straw-man designed to illicit a quick "gotchya" self win on the part of the OP. It belongs in a forwarded email, not in this forum.

The poll won't yield the results you want. The prattling grandstand isn't clever, it's just a rather annoyingly insecure flamebait after you fumbled your original reply to me with links to articles that were entirely irrelevant to what was being discussed.

No one believes Christians can't be persecuted. OP is conflating the dismissal of Western Christian "persecution" with somehow believing that people just don't think it can happen elsewhere. I am here to tell you that people are quite aware of the possibility of true persecution happening against any group of people, and most certainly the actual persecution of Christians elsewhere in the world. The error, however honest it may be, is his. And apparently yours too.