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China Cracks Down on Churches

nytimes.com

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Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#181

Post by throwaway2048 »

dgzl wrote: post #177
throwaway2048 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was also the argument for why WW1 could never happen, yet it did.

Could you explain this?

https://wwi.lib.byu.edu/index.php/Norman_Angell%27s_The_Grea...

An excerpt from a book by Norman Angell, (Nobel Peace Prize winner, lecturer, journalist and MP) in 1910 as to why wide scale war could not happen between major powers.

    [War] belongs to a stage of development out of which 
    we have passed that the commerce and industry of a 
    people no longer depend upon the expansion of its 
    political frontiers; that a nation's political and 
    economic frontiers do not now necessarily coincide; 
    that military power is socially and economically 
    futile, and can have no relation to the prosperity 
    of the people exercising it; that it is impossible 
    for one nation to seize by force the wealth or trade 
    of another -- to enrich itself by subjugating, or
    imposing its will by force on another; that in short,
    war, even when victorious, can no longer achieve those 
    aims for which people strive.
It was a fairly widespread view at that point in time.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#183

Post by thereare5lights »

theseadroid wrote: post #22

Why is this even on Hacker News? Does the majority of readers here have the expertise to comment on the matter?

I suspect there is a strain of anti-Chinese sentiments here. When you see articles relating to black social issues, they immediately get flagged, but articles like these always get through.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#184

Post by starbeast »

rohit2412 wrote: post #179
starbeast wrote: post #41

I'm a left wing atheist. While people like Dawkins and Hitchens may declare religion the root of all evil, I try to have some self awareness on the subject. I look at the 20th century and need only pick two names, Stalin and Mao, to find left wing atheism being drenched in blood. Killing for a dogma is the issue. And those who claim that religion is responsible for all misery are precious few philosophical steps away…

I dont think new atheism proponents like Dawkins and hitchens propose religious persecution like communists. Looking for social change towards atheism, like a third-wave atheism is very different from imposing atheism on people.

They don't propose it explicitly, they just lead people to it. Once you have started believing that religion is the root of all evil, you do not have to travel very far at all to find yourself persecuting the religious. The position they espouse isn't just a serious logical mistake, it is a terrible moral one.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#186

Post by bcaa7f3a8bbc »

dgzl wrote: post #177
throwaway2048 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was also the argument for why WW1 could never happen, yet it did.

Could you explain this?

Does a higher degree of globalization lead to a higher degree of stability and peace? This is a classical and interesting discussion. The world before World War I was arguably highly globalized. I failed to find a comprehensive summary of the arguments and counter-arguments, but here a few links:

“The First World War in the History of Globalization”

https://www.etown.edu/offices/president/2014-11-14-WW1-Globa...

The world today looks ominously like it did before World War I

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/12/29/the-w...

Globalization = No War? Does an increasingly economically interconnected world cut the chance of war? Maybe, but it doesn’t eliminate it.

https://thediplomat.com/2011/08/globalization-no-war/

We mustn’t fall for The Great Illusion again

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/955570...

The Great Illusion

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/opinion/15krugman.html

IMHO, the argument is partially true. But on the other hand, it increases the complexity of the system, and makes many otherwise unlikely "failure modes" possible.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#188

Post by perfmode »

onetimemanytime wrote: post #119
StevePerkins wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...Christianity, which by some estimates is China’s fastest-growing religion, promotes Western values and ideals like human rights that conflict with the aims of China’s authoritarian government This is the part that confuses me. I'm not sure what Christianity intrinsically promotes (ask 12 Christians and I suspect you'll receive 13 conflicting opinions). But practically speaking , governments and ruling classes ha…

>> Christianity became one of the Top Two religions on earth, precisely because of how malleable it is Christianity i one the top ten religions on earth--or the most popular, depending on how you look at it. :) But you are right, its interpretation depends on the Pope. While they are Orthodox and Protestants (fragmented), the Vatican sucks the oxygen out of them when it comes to the media and reputation. What China i…

> What China is doing is very logical:

The ends can never justify such means.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#189

Post by amaccuish »

wintom wrote: post #60
dgut wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary. I think our leaders should spend more time together. Maybe they should even vacation together. The US severed economic ties with Cuba in the 60s and look what happened (only recently celebrating Christmas became legal, and property that belonged to the church was returned). There are countless examples like that.

What exactly happened after the U.S. severed ties with Cuba? You make it sound like we lost something. They are still stuck in the 1960s, their economy is absolute garbage and the people are dirt poor, they lost multiple generations of opportunity. Have you been to Cuba? It’s like going back in time 70 years.. the country itself is beautiful if they had taken a different path they could be incredibly propsorous. A sm…

> A small country like Cuba could get by on tourism alone and do much better than they do now

Ye they could have done that if America hadn't enacted travel bans.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#190

Post by onetimemanytime »

perfmode wrote: post #188
onetimemanytime wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Christianity became one of the Top Two religions on earth, precisely because of how malleable it is Christianity i one the top ten religions on earth--or the most popular, depending on how you look at it. :) But you are right, its interpretation depends on the Pope. While they are Orthodox and Protestants (fragmented), the Vatican sucks the oxygen out of them when it comes to the media and reputation. What China i…

> What China is doing is very logical: The ends can never justify such means.

the word logical was used to include "morals aside." China knows what they want and to go there they are smart and dumb ways.
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