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China Cracks Down on Churches

nytimes.com

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Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#161

Post by whatshisface »

coliveira wrote: post #104
ghobs91 wrote: post #29

This is why it's frustrating when some make it seem that Christians are incapable of facing persecution, based entirely on their experiences in the US. The Christians in China are very brave for standing by their faith, and I wish them luck and peace.

Christians persecute Muslins. Muslins persecute Christians. Buddhists persecute Muslins. Christians persecute Jews. Muslins persecute Hinduism. It is not a Christian thing, it is a religion tradition all over the world to persecute other religions. Christians have done this for millennia and sometimes they are victims themselves. I think the solution is to stop with the craziness altogether.

Persecution of minorities is a human psychological reflex shared by all living human beings. If you got rid of religious differences you would just end up with more energy going in to race, political teams, and whatever else.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#162

Post by whatshisface »

kadendogthing wrote: post #48
ghobs91 wrote: post #29

This is why it's frustrating when some make it seem that Christians are incapable of facing persecution, based entirely on their experiences in the US. The Christians in China are very brave for standing by their faith, and I wish them luck and peace.

>This is why it's frustrating when some make it seem that Christians are incapable of facing persecution, Literally no one does this. Western Christians are incapable of facing persecution in the current social and economic climate. This is because Christians by and large make up every pillar of Western society. It has nothing to do with someone being a Christian else where in the world. The sentiment you are attempt…

>Western Christians are incapable of facing persecution in the current social and economic climate. This is because Christians by and large make up every pillar of Western society.

This belies a grave misunderstanding of how human societies actually work. It doesn't matter how many of your team are out there in the world when you are one team blue in a room full of twenty team red. If a team has at least two members, then even in a society of billions it is possible for them to be the majority sometimes.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#163

Post by [deleted] »

StevePerkins wrote: post #92
tivert wrote: post #18

> ...Christianity, which by some estimates is China’s fastest-growing religion, promotes Western values and ideals like human rights that conflict with the aims of China’s authoritarian government and Mr. Xi’s embrace of traditional Chinese culture and Confucian teachings that emphasize obedience and order. > But the government’s heavy-handed efforts to obliterate several high-profile churches have been met with resi…

> ...Christianity, which by some estimates is China’s fastest-growing religion, promotes Western values and ideals like human rights that conflict with the aims of China’s authoritarian government This is the part that confuses me. I'm not sure what Christianity intrinsically promotes (ask 12 Christians and I suspect you'll receive 13 conflicting opinions). But practically speaking , governments and ruling classes ha…

[deleted]

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#164

Post by PavlovsCat »

mmirate wrote: post #152
PavlovsCat wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're simply cracking down on a particular brand of being staunchly non-aligned with their totalitarian vision of reality. Which is probably exactly what you dislike about Christianity, that total claim to truth, and converting or murdering people in the past, right? So why gloat when now people get persecuted who aren't persecuting others? Because they carry the same "brain virus" as people who did in the past, as…

Humanity isn't yet omniscient; therefore, no-one should hold a total claim to truth in the way that either authoritarians or religions do. Therefore I have sympathy for neither of the parties involved in the events described by this article.

> He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it.

-- Martin Luther King, Jr.

You and those who flagged it off the front page like a brick could maybe ponder that... especially considering that you're hellbanned, by the way. I had to vouch for your comment to be able to reply to it. You've been disappeared without even being informed of it. May that inform your moral compass however it may.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#165

Post by d0100 »

chillacy wrote: post #149
RyanShook wrote: post #97

The paradox is that the more the government cracks down on Christianity, the more it will likely flourish.

Why do you think that’s true? China has cracked down on: democracy in the 80s, Falun Gong, Tibet, Islam, and now Christianity. None of the previous groups have “flourished” yet. Some have basically died, others had to go abroad to survive, none are mainstream in China l.

Tell that to Nero. Haha

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#166

Post by starbeast »

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #43
xvilka wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only LGBT, religion (not only Christianity) had done an enormous harm to women in all times (and still does).

The only religion that I can think of that doesnt do that is Wicca. Even Buddhists, along with Shakyamuni as this source, laid down much more restrictive rules for women adherents to Buddhism. Edit: go figure. Mention facts and you're -1'ed to currently -3. And it wasn't even demeaning or harassing.

When I was young I served Yoshino-kimi, the granddaughter of Tōfukumon'in, a disciple of the imperial temple Hōkyō-ji. Recently she passed away, although I know that this is the law of nature, the transience of the world struck me deeply, and I became a nun. I cut my hair and dyed my robes black and went on pilgrimage to Edo. There I had an audience with the monk Haku-ō of the Obaku Zen sect. I recounted to him, such things as my deep devotion to Buddhism since childhood, but Haku-ō replied that although he could see my sincere intentions, I could not escape my womanly appearance. Therefore I heated up an iron and held it against my face, and then wrote as my brush led me:

...

Formerly to amuse myself at court I would burn orchid incense;

Now to enter the Zen life I burn my own face.

The four seasons pass by naturally like this,

But I don't know who I am amidst the change.

...

In this living world

the body I give up and burn

would be wretched

if I thought of myself as

anything but firewood.

- Ryōnen Gensō

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#168

Post by joejerryronnie »

chillacy wrote: post #154
joejerryronnie wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diplomacy clearly does not work with China. The only thing that works is direct, aggressive competition. Hopefully this does not lead to military conflict but I worry that the US and China are on an inevitable path at this point.

China has something like 4x the US population, assuming they’re equally smart and driven on average, why wouldn’t they attain 4x the gdp eventually?

I think the two primary things where the US has an advantage over China is diversity (largely driven by foreign immigration) and free information flow. This leads to greater rates of innovation. Maybe not enough to keep China’s gdp from eventually surpassing the US, but that’s largely a glamour stat. The real issue is global power and influence. As shady and domineering as US foreign policy can be at times, a world dominated by China is far more concerning.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#169

Post by okatsu »

coliveira wrote: post #142

I see that the growth of China is driving Americans nuts, and they are trying to manufacture all kinds of ridiculous reasons to hate the Chinese, and not disclose that their reason number one is envy. The situation of religion in China is much better nowadays than it was ever before. A few decades ago the Chinese government would incarcerate anyone who propagated religion in the country, and nowadays must religions c…

I dunno, the South China Morning Post reported on China essentially phasing out Islam [1], and that's on top of their ethnic cleansing with the Uyghur.

1: https://m.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/2145...

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#170

Post by acqq »

skymt wrote: post #110
StevePerkins wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...Christianity, which by some estimates is China’s fastest-growing religion, promotes Western values and ideals like human rights that conflict with the aims of China’s authoritarian government This is the part that confuses me. I'm not sure what Christianity intrinsically promotes (ask 12 Christians and I suspect you'll receive 13 conflicting opinions). But practically speaking , governments and ruling classes ha…

China has party-authorized Christian churches with exactly your goal in mind. This crackdown is on unauthorized churches. For an example of how they frame it in propaganda: http://en.people.cn/n/2014/0807/c90882-8766262.html

It matches what’s written in the OP article: “The government has focused its campaign on unofficial Christian churches that promote ideas like social justice or have been critical of the party’s grip on society.”

And knowing what’s documented about the CIA activities in the past, which include using religion(1) I fully understand that attitude.

1) See https://dgibbs.faculty.arizona.edu/brzezinski_interview but also what was yearx before: https://www.npr.org/2010/06/05/127500908/cia-fight-against-c...

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