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How ‘Baldur’s Gate’ Saved the Computer RPG

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Re: How ‘Baldur’s Gate’ Saved the Computer RPG

#121
post #87

My greatest accomplishment as a kid was beating BG2 on "Insane" difficulty as a solo character. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa8JV3z-Oeo I must have played through the game at least two dozen times and I never got tired of it. To this day it's still my favorite game of all time. Modern RPGs just don't compare in terms of storytelling and gameplay experience, in my opinion.

Used to feel the same but I think Divinity 2 in co-op mode edges it for me now.

Re: How ‘Baldur’s Gate’ Saved the Computer RPG

#122

I long for a proliferation of 'adventure' or slower RPGs, instead of the FPS-type we see so much of. One advantage of the former is there's often a party component, like the old-school Wasteland (or the new Wasteland II), old Bard's Tale, etc. Or perhaps the party component fell out of favor for a different reason? I've quite enjoyed Witcher 3's atmosphere and story, but there's something hack-and-slash about the com…

There are piles of these, still. The second Divinity is barely a year old, party mechanics are typical in lots of tactical JRPGs if that's your thing, etc.

Re: How ‘Baldur’s Gate’ Saved the Computer RPG

#123
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do remember feeling of being in something of RPG drought when Baldur's Gate came along. At least I believe that was the sentiment expressed by PC Games magazine, which I was reading pretty heavily at the time. I don't think ES or Fallout were on my radar at that time but you're the first person I've heard with very positive opinions of Daggerfall; most of the ES nostalgics seem to pine for Morrowind. Baldur's Gate…

Daggerfall was a buggy mess or randomly generated, yet still always the same dungeons. No reason whatsoever to walk in the always-same, never ending landscape. The plot was good, the scale huge. Morrowind fixed all of that - much smaller scale, less generated stuff, excellent plot, few (er) bugs - it was actually possible to finish the game. Landscape with purpose, it was actually interesting to walk and explore.

Admittedly, I've only played Skyrim and a bit of ESO, but I've gotten the impression from Bethesda that their RPGs are always buggy, but, at least with Skryim, the game was so good I was more than willing to forgive them for it. Skyrim remains my favorite single player RPG to date.

To respond to the OP, I consider the baldur's gate series to be more of a trend-setter than the other games he listed.

Re: How ‘Baldur’s Gate’ Saved the Computer RPG

#124
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could do this, or try to kill dual sword wield Drizzt Do'Urden.. the legend.

Yep, surround with a swarm of skeletons so he can't move and kill him with crossbows.

No, you have to have enough members in your party to surround him before speaking to him and then remove them from your party. So neutral NPCs are surrounding him. He will just kill skeletons. But you deserve whatever is coming to you if you kill Drizzt just for some swords.

Re: How ‘Baldur’s Gate’ Saved the Computer RPG

#125

OK, so in 1995 there were few computer RPGs. True. In fact I distinctly remember myself at that time, as a huge CRPG fan, thinking that they were bad times for PC RPGs, and hoping for better times. But 1996 was the year of The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall, one of the best RPGs of all time (IMO, way better than Baldur's) that would later continue into a saga that is still top notch today. In 1997, Fallout came out. I'…

Everyone forgetting 1995 saw a huge is release that influenced release dates of dozen titles that ended up postponed for testing.

The rpg genre itself was doing strong in 1995, heck just check SNES releases, Chrono trigger, dragon quest, finally fantasy...

It was just a transitional period for the platform https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2012/12/06/a-visual-hi...

Re: How ‘Baldur’s Gate’ Saved the Computer RPG

#126

OK, so in 1995 there were few computer RPGs. True. In fact I distinctly remember myself at that time, as a huge CRPG fan, thinking that they were bad times for PC RPGs, and hoping for better times. But 1996 was the year of The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall, one of the best RPGs of all time (IMO, way better than Baldur's) that would later continue into a saga that is still top notch today. In 1997, Fallout came out. I'…

I do remember feeling of being in something of RPG drought when Baldur's Gate came along. At least I believe that was the sentiment expressed by PC Games magazine, which I was reading pretty heavily at the time. I don't think ES or Fallout were on my radar at that time but you're the first person I've heard with very positive opinions of Daggerfall; most of the ES nostalgics seem to pine for Morrowind. Baldur's Gate…

Morrowind does have more following, but Daggerfall has an extraordinarily staunch user base. 22 years after its release, its Reddit and various forums are pretty active and there is a full remake in Unity getting close to full functionality, with all code recreated from scratch, and people are already creating various mods for it. (obligatory link: https://www.dfworkshop.net/).

Daggerfall and Morrowind had a quite different spirit, it was not a case of incremental improvement but a change of philosophy, hence they appeal to different (although overlapping) sets of people.

Daggerfall was one of the most ambitious open world games ever created. It had an enormous world, the size of Great Britain, with over 15,000 towns and dungeons to explore and tons of quests that would be randomly parameterized with towns, buildings, dungeons and NPCs. The world was procedurally generated once, and stored into the game, so everyone sees the same towns and dungeons. The game play was totally open, to the extent that many Daggerfall fans don't care much about the main quest (even though the main quest story was actually top notch, with lots of twists, treason, meaningful choice and all). Why have a main quest when you can just live your life setting your own goals: advancing in the various guilds, striving to buy a big house, a boat, to become a famous knight, etc. The dungeons were also procedurally generated, and so labyrinthine that you could literally spend hours exploring a single dungeon. This is something that some people hated about the game (I actually love it. It was deeply immersive, and the feeling of finally getting back to the surface and hearing crickets was amazing). The character creation system was more oriented to role-playing (you could do things like give your character specific advantages or disadvantages) than to game balance. You could even make your own spells!

Morrowind continued the saga in terms of lore and mechanics, but took a totally different turn. The world was hand-crafted, so it was more carefully put together, but also much smaller. And the open-world nature was very much toned down. You were now "the Chosen One" (in Daggerfall you were just a random person, except for being a friend of the emperor, living their life and trying to make fortune) and you pretty much had to follow the main quest because there weren't that many things to do on the side compared to Daggerfall. The labyrinthine dungeons were replaced by quite linear dungeons (although less so than in later installments of the saga). Roleplaying-oriented features like advantages and disadvantages on character creation, questions to determine character background, etc. were removed.

Don't get me wrong, I love Morrowind too, as well as Oblivion and Skyrim, and even Arena. I have enjoyed all of them a lot. But Daggerfall was a unique beast and scratched itches that no other game did. I understand that it's not for everyone, many people hate it. It's one of the most polarizing games I have ever seen, a case of "love it or hate it". Exploring dungeons requires a lot of patience which many people just don't have, and the procedurally-generated nature (with 1996 technology) means that it isn't as fleshed out as other games - for example towns can feel quite repetitive, etc., you have to use the imagination a bit to imagine how each place is unique. Also, the fact that it was very buggy (although it improved a lot with patches, and Daggerfall Unity will hopefully be very stable as it's remade from scratch) alienated some players. But for the kind of player who seeks primarily immersion, the kind of player who actually roleplays, it's an unparalleled wonder because it lets you be whoever you want to be much better than the later games, which take you through the story on rails. Daggerfall feels like a real world, a simulation of a life in a fantasy land, and the emergent behavior caused by quests, reputations, etc. is often amazing. While the subsequent games in the saga are masterpieces in their own right, I long for a game in the spirit of Daggerfall with current (or at least later) technology.

Re: How ‘Baldur’s Gate’ Saved the Computer RPG

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still possible. I have 3 kids a full time job and a 1 hour driving commute each way. Despite this in the past 6 years I've still managed to play through Ultima VI, Baldur's Gate 1&2 Planescape Torment, 1/2 of Icewind Dale (finally burnt out on infinity engine), Tides of Numenera, Pillars of Eternity, Torment, Fallout 3, Fallout 4, God of War, Horizon Zero Dawn, Zelda a Link to the Past, Zelda Wind Waker, Hyper L…

I highly recommend you give the Exile series from Spiderweb Software a chance if you haven't. It's a bit dated graphically, but it's engine has been kept up and there's some new Avadon series as well. It's hands down some of the best storytelling and I've easily played hundreds of hours. I've definitely played from night to morning without realizing it more than a few times.

Jeff Vogel from Spiderweb Software have an awesome retrospective on his games and company at GDC 2018:

"Failing to Fill: The Spiderweb Software Way" https://youtu.be/stxVBJem3Rs

Re: How ‘Baldur’s Gate’ Saved the Computer RPG

#128

I long for a proliferation of 'adventure' or slower RPGs, instead of the FPS-type we see so much of. One advantage of the former is there's often a party component, like the old-school Wasteland (or the new Wasteland II), old Bard's Tale, etc. Or perhaps the party component fell out of favor for a different reason? I've quite enjoyed Witcher 3's atmosphere and story, but there's something hack-and-slash about the com…

I remember lamenting the fact that nearly every party-based RPG seemed to have smaller parties with each sequel... it makes me wonder if they don't focus-group well or something.

I think it's partly to control difficulty better. In BG if you build your party neglecting some key concepts (a dps, a tank, crowd control spells etc) you can very well find yourself unable to continue at certain challenge (i.e. the for golem room if you focus too much on hth, out the first dragon in icewind.. memory about the specifics faded now pardon any confusion) and basically you do well up to the challenge then you can't progress anymore.

Also a smaller party with less variations in roles is much easier to do storytelling with.

Re: How ‘Baldur’s Gate’ Saved the Computer RPG

#129

OK, so in 1995 there were few computer RPGs. True. In fact I distinctly remember myself at that time, as a huge CRPG fan, thinking that they were bad times for PC RPGs, and hoping for better times. But 1996 was the year of The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall, one of the best RPGs of all time (IMO, way better than Baldur's) that would later continue into a saga that is still top notch today. In 1997, Fallout came out. I'…

There was also Diablo 1 released at the end of 1996. It was a great time for RPGs.

I deliberately didn't include it because it's somewhat contentious whether it is an RPG or not and I had enough games to quote without risking triggering that discussion... but yes. Also very influential, even on Baldur's Gate itself, I'd say.

Re: How ‘Baldur’s Gate’ Saved the Computer RPG

#130

Oh to be a kid again. I've tried a dozen or so RPGs since my childhood and I can't get into any. It's hard to sink deep enough into a world when I have responsibilities. As a kid, the Christmas break or summer break was this magical time where I could do this. My hope is that when I retire I can become re acquainted with crpgs

It's still possible. I have 3 kids a full time job and a 1 hour driving commute each way. Despite this in the past 6 years I've still managed to play through Ultima VI, Baldur's Gate 1&2 Planescape Torment, 1/2 of Icewind Dale (finally burnt out on infinity engine), Tides of Numenera, Pillars of Eternity, Torment, Fallout 3, Fallout 4, God of War, Horizon Zero Dawn, Zelda a Link to the Past, Zelda Wind Waker, Hyper L…

What did you think about Tides of Numenara? I know there are many reviews out there, but your taste in games seems amazingly close to mine, including finding Skyrim boring, so I'd love to hear your opinion. I've had the game sitting on my computer for a while but haven't started it yet.
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