Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport • Hacker News Board

Re: Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport

#61

Post by ascar » Wed, Dec 19, 2018, 7:52 AM UTC

gammateam wrote: post #24

rjzzleep wrote: post #11

Here's are the procedings [1] and the complaint [2] Say what you will about the US and the fact that you can get shot for looking at the wrong guy at the wrong time, but the mere fact that this happening and so easy to follow is quite interesting. In Germany you'd be laughed out of the room and I've had my fair share of racism to deal with from the authorities despite having grown up here. [1] https://www.courtlisten…

Sorry who would be laughed out of the room and for what? It wasnt clear to me from what you wrote Also I found it interesting that Germans perceive the US as overly litigious but I found an article that said Germany has more lawsuits (per capita? In absolute totals?), funny how perception takes a long time to catch up to various forms of reality

I guess the perception comes from the kind of lawsuits private persons can get disproportionately rich of.

Re: Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport

#62

Post by bonestamp2 » Wed, Dec 19, 2018, 7:53 AM UTC

bruceb wrote: post #22

The problem with Customs and Border Protection is the attitude. They do have a challenging job. 99%+ of travelers are legit and doing nothing nefarious. They have to pick out the ones who are not legit/up to no good. I have no problem with them asking questions of myself or other travelers, even a lot of questions. The problem is the attitude and abusive nature of their conduct. I have had this experience a couple ti…

> Plenty of other countries have customs/border agents that quiz you without attacking or belittling you.

I agree. I am Canadian, but I went to school in the US. After school I returned to Canada. A couple years later I had a US work visa to train Americans on a particular technology that my company specialized in, and I was maybe the foremost expert in (outside of the manufacturer). I wasn't taking anyone's job, I was literally helping Americans keep their jobs instead of being replaced by me or someone like me.

Anyway, on one particular trip I was called to secondary inspection and the CBP officer who received me there went on a long tirade about how I should work in my own country for a change. I mean, I did work in my country most of the time (I was still well within the 183 day/year tax treaty limit). He got so mad he actually walked away before he even asked me any questions. I was just standing there, confused, embarrassed and left feeling guilty even though I had done nothing illegal or immoral.

But, there are good people in the CBP too... one saw what happened and came over and profusely apologized. He asked a few questions, apologized again, and sent me on my way. On the flip side, I've had my computers and phones searched by Canadian Customs and they've done so with tact and compassion, which seems to be much more effective -- it's amazing how much more cooperative people are when you treat them with compassion.

But that's not just CBP, that's true for every industry that I've worked in... there are a few assholes everywhere and everyone else who is cool is a lot more effective because they approach people like they're working together rather than against each other.

Re: Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport

#63

Post by taneq » Wed, Dec 19, 2018, 7:55 AM UTC

User23 wrote: post #17

way2983 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So, the selfish question then is: How do I protect myself from such unwarranted searches? Is there a way I can present my phone such that it drops into a mode that contains no data? Do I need to back my phone up before traveling, wipe it for the border crossing, and then restore once I feel safe? Save your encrypted system configuration/data on a service. Leave all your devices behind. Buy new devices on the other s…

Until a court rules that they can ask for your encrypted remote backup because reasons. And then hold you in contempt until you comply. This isn’t a technical problem, it’s a political one, which means it demands a political solution.

This is the real answer. The problem is that the government feels entitled to any data they may request of you. Regardless of your technical acumen, they can always fall back on a $5 wrench.

Re: Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport

#64

Post by dawnerd » Wed, Dec 19, 2018, 8:00 AM UTC

bonestamp2 wrote: post #62

bruceb wrote: post #22

The problem with Customs and Border Protection is the attitude. They do have a challenging job. 99%+ of travelers are legit and doing nothing nefarious. They have to pick out the ones who are not legit/up to no good. I have no problem with them asking questions of myself or other travelers, even a lot of questions. The problem is the attitude and abusive nature of their conduct. I have had this experience a couple ti…

> Plenty of other countries have customs/border agents that quiz you without attacking or belittling you. I agree. I am Canadian, but I went to school in the US. After school I returned to Canada. A couple years later I had a US work visa to train Americans on a particular technology that my company specialized in, and I was maybe the foremost expert in (outside of the manufacturer). I wasn't taking anyone's job, I w…

I’ve been to Canada numerous times and the agents on your side are so nice. Also never really had a problem with us agents other than they all seem over worked and under paid. At least that’s what their attitude comes off like to me. I do remember one case where a Canadian agent asked what my profession was and at the time I said “web developer” but they heard weapon developer. Pretty funny and awkward.

And Gesh, I know of some people that cross the border a lot but don’t have nexus or global entry... it’s so worth getting.

Re: Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport

#65

Post by Canada » Wed, Dec 19, 2018, 8:01 AM UTC

jeauxlb wrote: post #49

gammateam wrote: post #28

So did anybody call a lawyer like he asked? Reminds me of the movie Trading Places where Eddie Murphy asked for a lawyer and all of the aristocrats coughed and turned away My rehearsed line is “you in the I’ll split the settlement with you if you record this and call a lawyer!” Gotta disrupt the bystander syndrome by calling out a particular person And provide the financial incentive

How would this even work? I google for local "immigration lawyers"(??) and tell the person who answers a man whose name I don't know yelled at me to call them, and that they get someone down to the airport? I'd like to think if I saw this happening I'd step in to help, but I don't feel like I would have enough compelling --- let alone actionable --- information for a lawyer to be interested enough to intervene.

I would call the ACLU or EFF and describe the situation. Nobody would even notice.

Re: Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport

#66

Post by dawnerd » Wed, Dec 19, 2018, 8:01 AM UTC

zachberger wrote: post #60

bruceb wrote: post #22

The problem with Customs and Border Protection is the attitude. They do have a challenging job. 99%+ of travelers are legit and doing nothing nefarious. They have to pick out the ones who are not legit/up to no good. I have no problem with them asking questions of myself or other travelers, even a lot of questions. The problem is the attitude and abusive nature of their conduct. I have had this experience a couple ti…

I agree. I went through the TSA checkpoint at the United Premier Access this last Tuesday. They have the new automated bin return system. Some of the people who travel less frequently were leaving the bins behind instead of putting them in the machine to be returned to the front. The TSA agent shouted at them repeatedly, "do any of you read English? Can't you read the damn sign?" While he pointed at the instructions.…

I travel frequently and those machines at lax always throw me off. And they expect you to stand right up next to someone else while you empty your pockets. Literally feels like I’m cattle.

Re: Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport

#67

Post by bonestamp2 » Wed, Dec 19, 2018, 8:03 AM UTC

User23 wrote: post #17

way2983 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So, the selfish question then is: How do I protect myself from such unwarranted searches? Is there a way I can present my phone such that it drops into a mode that contains no data? Do I need to back my phone up before traveling, wipe it for the border crossing, and then restore once I feel safe? Save your encrypted system configuration/data on a service. Leave all your devices behind. Buy new devices on the other s…

Until a court rules that they can ask for your encrypted remote backup because reasons. And then hold you in contempt until you comply. This isn’t a technical problem, it’s a political one, which means it demands a political solution.

> Until a court rules that they can ask for your encrypted remote backup because reasons.

Is there legal precedence for this though? I thought the law (and precedence) was that they can only search what you are carrying with you at the point of entry?

Re: Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport

#68

Post by CobrastanJorji » Wed, Dec 19, 2018, 8:04 AM UTC

bruceb wrote: post #22

The problem with Customs and Border Protection is the attitude. They do have a challenging job. 99%+ of travelers are legit and doing nothing nefarious. They have to pick out the ones who are not legit/up to no good. I have no problem with them asking questions of myself or other travelers, even a lot of questions. The problem is the attitude and abusive nature of their conduct. I have had this experience a couple ti…

The TSA's mission is to "protect the nation's transportation systems to ensure freedom of movement for people and commerce." Preventing someone's freedom of movement because they weren't permitted to browse his phone is entirely contrary to their stated mission.

Re: Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport

#69

Post by bonestamp2 » Wed, Dec 19, 2018, 8:06 AM UTC

taneq wrote: post #59

gabrielmoshe wrote: post #3

This is certainly not the first article of its kind, and the legality of such action seems to be upheld in court (at least the use of search without a warrant at the border). So, the selfish question then is: How do I protect myself from such unwarranted searches? Is there a way I can present my phone such that it drops into a mode that contains no data? Do I need to back my phone up before traveling, wipe it for the…

> It feels crazy to ask this question, as an American citizen, but HN, what do you do to protect your data at the American border? I guess the real (rhetorical) question is, are you doing this for the principle of the thing or because you have something illegal? If the latter, then the only foolproof way is to travel without a phone, purchase a burner when you get wherever you're going, then destroy it when you leave…

> let them nose through your happy snaps for a minute on the way through.

Just so you know, that's not how it has worked since 2013. Now they take your phone to the back room and image your phone. Then they upload that image to a service that searches your data. Then, and there is recent evidence of this, they don't always destroy the local copy of your data in the field office which would allow agents to browse your data at any time. Remember, they require you to unlock (decrypt) your phone before doing this.

Re: Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport

#70

Post by bonestamp2 » Wed, Dec 19, 2018, 8:08 AM UTC

hawaiianbrah wrote: post #9

superkuh wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget that the border zone extends 100 miles in from the actual border (including the great lakes). Most US people live their entire lives in the constitution free zone where this kind of violation is allowed.

“Most people” seems like a bit of a stretch...

The "most people" actually comes from the part he left out... it's not just 100 miles from any border, it's 100 miles from any international airport, which does include most people.