An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners • Hacker News Board

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#21

Post by munk-a » Wed, Dec 19, 2018, 2:26 AM UTC

Gibbon1 wrote: post #18

munk-a wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in the modern political stage we've forgotten that regulations on industry is not a market distortion but a market correction (when done correctly). Regulations exist to incorporate the costs of externalities into the cost of doing business. This sort of a market correction only receives criticism on an inter-industry level (and possibly with regards to imports if the cost is only applied domestically) becaus…

> we've forgotten that regulations on industry is not a market distortion but a market correction (when done correctly). My argument is we've replaced a rich set of social controls with a single unitary one; money. And then wonder why we're constantly dealing with mal-externalities. If you consider that human societies are complex and industrial ones even more so, the idea that you can manage that with a single contr…

I think that may indeed be a problem, but I'd like to hope it isn't one. I think non-translatable social controls are too mysterious and arbitrary which leads to the ability for various social biases to be unaddressable. Ideally codifying these social controls into monetary penalties should allow easy verification of the fairness of the system and comprehensibility of the system to individuals who are not already well versed in the system.

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#22

Post by rbritton » Wed, Dec 19, 2018, 2:27 AM UTC

gnu8 wrote: post #3

It's clear that no one should be working in a mine without at minimum an N95 mask and probably a PAPR (powered air purifying respirator). I wonder if there is any reason at all, other than preserving corporate profit margins, that the coal industry has failed to adopt simple and well understood industrial hygiene practices. Clean coal indeed.

Are coal mines hot like deep metal mines? In The Deep Dark [0], it started that many of the miners skimped on safety devices even when available because of the extreme temperature and humidity if nothing else.

[0]: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0307238776/ref=oh_aui_sear...

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#23

Post by derefr » Wed, Dec 19, 2018, 2:29 AM UTC

Gibbon1 wrote: post #18

munk-a wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in the modern political stage we've forgotten that regulations on industry is not a market distortion but a market correction (when done correctly). Regulations exist to incorporate the costs of externalities into the cost of doing business. This sort of a market correction only receives criticism on an inter-industry level (and possibly with regards to imports if the cost is only applied domestically) becaus…

> we've forgotten that regulations on industry is not a market distortion but a market correction (when done correctly). My argument is we've replaced a rich set of social controls with a single unitary one; money. And then wonder why we're constantly dealing with mal-externalities. If you consider that human societies are complex and industrial ones even more so, the idea that you can manage that with a single contr…

Try to “charge” people in any other resource, and they’ll just convert the extra profits they make from the operation into that currency and then pay you in it.

For example: stores that require people to wait in line to get a limited-availability thing on a first-come-first-served basis. Rich people just pay someone to wait in line for them. Entrepreneurs serve these rich people by putting a bunch of people in the line and then auctioning off the resulting purchases to make a profit. Now you’ve got scalpers, a loss of profits to middlemen that could have gone to the original seller (and thus subsidized production), and people wasting time in lines for no reason (because nobody is now getting the thing that wasn’t previously.)

We internalize externalities using monetary penalties, because higher profits are what drive businesses to favor these strategies in the first place. If you cancel out the profit (with a tax or fine), you remove the motive, rather than simply redirecting it.

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#24

Post by vondur » Wed, Dec 19, 2018, 2:36 AM UTC

Pretty sad. That’s what killed my grandfather back in the 1950s while my mother was a child. Can’t belie its still happening 60 years later.

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#25

Post by whyenot » Wed, Dec 19, 2018, 2:39 AM UTC

gnu8 wrote: post #3

It's clear that no one should be working in a mine without at minimum an N95 mask and probably a PAPR (powered air purifying respirator). I wonder if there is any reason at all, other than preserving corporate profit margins, that the coal industry has failed to adopt simple and well understood industrial hygiene practices. Clean coal indeed.

That's a good point -- why aren't mining companies buying PAPRs for their workers? PAPRs are designed for difficult conditions like hot and damp, and at least in my experience, the constant flow of air over your face cools you down and is a lot more comfortable than a traditional respirator. Mining is a relatively well paid profession. Yes, PAPRs are expensive ($1,500), and depending on how often they need to be changed, the cost of filters can quickly add up, but even for a heartless corporation, wouldn't it make monetary sense to invest a few $1,000 a year per worker to keep your most experienced employees, avoid lawsuits, etc.?

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#26

Post by ars » Wed, Dec 19, 2018, 2:39 AM UTC

munchbunny wrote: post #6

I think it's a story we're all quite familiar with: in the absence of someone keeping an industry honest, the industry tends to develop honesty problems, because cutting corners makes the decision-makers more money, and the externalities are just that: externalities.

> in the absence of someone keeping an industry honest

Aren't mines mostly unionized? Isn't that like the #1 reason for a union to exist?

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#27

Post by mindslight » Wed, Dec 19, 2018, 2:54 AM UTC

Gibbon1 wrote: post #18

munk-a wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in the modern political stage we've forgotten that regulations on industry is not a market distortion but a market correction (when done correctly). Regulations exist to incorporate the costs of externalities into the cost of doing business. This sort of a market correction only receives criticism on an inter-industry level (and possibly with regards to imports if the cost is only applied domestically) becaus…

> we've forgotten that regulations on industry is not a market distortion but a market correction (when done correctly). My argument is we've replaced a rich set of social controls with a single unitary one; money. And then wonder why we're constantly dealing with mal-externalities. If you consider that human societies are complex and industrial ones even more so, the idea that you can manage that with a single contr…

Erm, the entire point of a simple metric (money) is so that complex processes don't have to be understood top-down to be managed. From first principles, the more technologically complex a society gets, the more you would expect its priorities to be weighed with money.

Now please, don't take this as an endorsement that we should let externalities go unchecked, or even that governance should shirk basic understanding of processes/industries and expect to replace that entirely with money. Nor do I have love for perverse money-generating yet counterproductive endeavors. I'm just saying the basic trend that you've characterized as "ludicrous" is actually entirely appropriate.

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#28

Post by nradov » Wed, Dec 19, 2018, 3:08 AM UTC

matte_black wrote: post #20

gnu8 wrote: post #3

It's clear that no one should be working in a mine without at minimum an N95 mask and probably a PAPR (powered air purifying respirator). I wonder if there is any reason at all, other than preserving corporate profit margins, that the coal industry has failed to adopt simple and well understood industrial hygiene practices. Clean coal indeed.

Respirators aren't all that expensive, you can buy one at a hardware store. Why wouldn't miners just bring their own?

Respirators are uncomfortable to wear. I know that might seem like silly reason considering the long term health consequences, but in industrial settings it's quite common for workers to ignore or disable any safety equipment that gets in their way.

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#29

Post by munchbunny » Wed, Dec 19, 2018, 3:14 AM UTC

ars wrote: post #26

munchbunny wrote: post #6

I think it's a story we're all quite familiar with: in the absence of someone keeping an industry honest, the industry tends to develop honesty problems, because cutting corners makes the decision-makers more money, and the externalities are just that: externalities.

> in the absence of someone keeping an industry honest Aren't mines mostly unionized? Isn't that like the #1 reason for a union to exist?

Unions don't exist to keep industries honest. Unions exist to look after employees. They are often but not always the same thing.

But more practically speaking, unions clearly didn't solve the problem here, and unions' power over the economy has waned a lot over the years.

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#30

Post by mannykannot » Wed, Dec 19, 2018, 3:19 AM UTC

Gibbon1 wrote: post #18

munk-a wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in the modern political stage we've forgotten that regulations on industry is not a market distortion but a market correction (when done correctly). Regulations exist to incorporate the costs of externalities into the cost of doing business. This sort of a market correction only receives criticism on an inter-industry level (and possibly with regards to imports if the cost is only applied domestically) becaus…

> we've forgotten that regulations on industry is not a market distortion but a market correction (when done correctly). My argument is we've replaced a rich set of social controls with a single unitary one; money. And then wonder why we're constantly dealing with mal-externalities. If you consider that human societies are complex and industrial ones even more so, the idea that you can manage that with a single contr…

Those that were replaced, were replaced because they were not working.