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An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

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Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#11

Post by fzeroracer »

adanto6840 wrote: post #8
gnu8 wrote: post #3

It's clear that no one should be working in a mine without at minimum an N95 mask and probably a PAPR (powered air purifying respirator). I wonder if there is any reason at all, other than preserving corporate profit margins, that the coal industry has failed to adopt simple and well understood industrial hygiene practices. Clean coal indeed.

Surely it's cheaper to provide this kind of protection (I assumed it would be OSHA-mandated honestly) than it is to pay for the healthcare and/or lawsuits that follow? I admittedly haven't read the article yet, but it's surprising to me that black lung / industrial air quality isn't something that OSHA (or similar) is tasked with ensuring ample worker protections for.

Presumably if the coal industry has regulatory capture then the rules are written to allow for easily exploitable loopholes. Not to mention many people simply can't afford a lawyer or have no way of getting to one.

So a lawsuit becomes simply an expected cost of doing business, like how some software companies treat data leaks.

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#12

Post by fromthestart »

maxxxxx wrote: post #7
gnu8 wrote: post #3

It's clear that no one should be working in a mine without at minimum an N95 mask and probably a PAPR (powered air purifying respirator). I wonder if there is any reason at all, other than preserving corporate profit margins, that the coal industry has failed to adopt simple and well understood industrial hygiene practices. Clean coal indeed.

"Clean coal" was always a bullshit term like "light cigarettes". It was just a way to delay any real action.

Clean coal refers to scrubbing pollutants and possibly CO2 from emissions. It isn't necessarily bullshit.

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#13

Post by parshimers »

adanto6840 wrote: post #8
gnu8 wrote: post #3

It's clear that no one should be working in a mine without at minimum an N95 mask and probably a PAPR (powered air purifying respirator). I wonder if there is any reason at all, other than preserving corporate profit margins, that the coal industry has failed to adopt simple and well understood industrial hygiene practices. Clean coal indeed.

Surely it's cheaper to provide this kind of protection (I assumed it would be OSHA-mandated honestly) than it is to pay for the healthcare and/or lawsuits that follow? I admittedly haven't read the article yet, but it's surprising to me that black lung / industrial air quality isn't something that OSHA (or similar) is tasked with ensuring ample worker protections for.

>In the past 30 years, the biggest coal seams were mined out in Appalachia, leaving thinner seams coursing through sandstone.

...

>And because there's no coal, it is considered development mining or construction. So sampling the air for toxic dust is not required, even though it is the most dangerous dust. Former MSHA officials told us some inspectors did it, but most did not.

Hopefully the lawsuits cost them. However the folks that make these decisions never see the consequences; they've taken their bonuses and gone by now. Furthermore the mine doesn't pay for medicare. We all do.

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#14

Post by maxxxxx »

fromthestart wrote: post #12
maxxxxx wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Clean coal" was always a bullshit term like "light cigarettes". It was just a way to delay any real action.

Clean coal refers to scrubbing pollutants and possibly CO2 from emissions. It isn't necessarily bullshit.

It is BS because they never put anything behind it.

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#15

Post by maxxxxx »

parshimers wrote: post #13
adanto6840 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely it's cheaper to provide this kind of protection (I assumed it would be OSHA-mandated honestly) than it is to pay for the healthcare and/or lawsuits that follow? I admittedly haven't read the article yet, but it's surprising to me that black lung / industrial air quality isn't something that OSHA (or similar) is tasked with ensuring ample worker protections for.

>In the past 30 years, the biggest coal seams were mined out in Appalachia, leaving thinner seams coursing through sandstone. ... >And because there's no coal, it is considered development mining or construction. So sampling the air for toxic dust is not required, even though it is the most dangerous dust. Former MSHA officials told us some inspectors did it, but most did not. Hopefully the lawsuits cost them. Howeve…

"Furthermore the mine doesn't pay for medicare. We all do. "

Exactly. Worst case they can file for bankruptcy and blame evil environmentalists.

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#16

Post by munk-a »

fromthestart wrote: post #12
maxxxxx wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Clean coal" was always a bullshit term like "light cigarettes". It was just a way to delay any real action.

Clean coal refers to scrubbing pollutants and possibly CO2 from emissions. It isn't necessarily bullshit.

Indeed, and to clarify "clean coal" isn't referring to cleaning the coal, it is referring to increased effort put into trying to reduce released pollutants when using the coal.

There was a hilarious quote from a while back where a politician referred to train loads of "cleaned coal" heading out of Montana which created a misunderstanding about what clean coal technologies are trying to do. There is no "cleaned coal".

(Aside, I believe calling those technologies "clean coal" is quite hyperbolic, but that is a separate issue)

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#18

Post by Gibbon1 »

munk-a wrote: post #10
munchbunny wrote: post #6

I think it's a story we're all quite familiar with: in the absence of someone keeping an industry honest, the industry tends to develop honesty problems, because cutting corners makes the decision-makers more money, and the externalities are just that: externalities.

I think in the modern political stage we've forgotten that regulations on industry is not a market distortion but a market correction (when done correctly). Regulations exist to incorporate the costs of externalities into the cost of doing business. This sort of a market correction only receives criticism on an inter-industry level (and possibly with regards to imports if the cost is only applied domestically) becaus…

> we've forgotten that regulations on industry is not a market distortion but a market correction (when done correctly).

My argument is we've replaced a rich set of social controls with a single unitary one; money. And then wonder why we're constantly dealing with mal-externalities.

If you consider that human societies are complex and industrial ones even more so, the idea that you can manage that with a single control input (money) is ludicrous.

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#19

Post by fian »

adanto6840 wrote: post #8
gnu8 wrote: post #3

It's clear that no one should be working in a mine without at minimum an N95 mask and probably a PAPR (powered air purifying respirator). I wonder if there is any reason at all, other than preserving corporate profit margins, that the coal industry has failed to adopt simple and well understood industrial hygiene practices. Clean coal indeed.

Surely it's cheaper to provide this kind of protection (I assumed it would be OSHA-mandated honestly) than it is to pay for the healthcare and/or lawsuits that follow? I admittedly haven't read the article yet, but it's surprising to me that black lung / industrial air quality isn't something that OSHA (or similar) is tasked with ensuring ample worker protections for.

The time-lag for the health problems to appear allows current management to take the risk and extract extra profit (and bonuses). That the company may be liable for health care costs of employees or is sued after current management have moved on or retired is an externality for them personally.

Re: An Epidemic Is Killing Thousands of Coal Miners

#20

Post by matte_black »

gnu8 wrote: post #3

It's clear that no one should be working in a mine without at minimum an N95 mask and probably a PAPR (powered air purifying respirator). I wonder if there is any reason at all, other than preserving corporate profit margins, that the coal industry has failed to adopt simple and well understood industrial hygiene practices. Clean coal indeed.

Respirators aren't all that expensive, you can buy one at a hardware store. Why wouldn't miners just bring their own?
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