Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell • Hacker News Board

Re: Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

#81

Post by donkeyd » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 2:39 PM UTC

InitialLastName wrote: post #34

grecy wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then one day he'll announce a competition for children to win golden tickets to visit his grand factory I feel like this is exactly the kind of quirky thing he'd do anyway, without all that negative stuff.

"Every car has a chance of having a winning ticket in the glove compartment" The only problem is that then they actually have to manufacture enough cars to drive a competition like that.

They're producing 7000 Model 3 a week. That's more than any other electric car currently, as far as I know.

Re: Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

#82

Post by WhompingWindows » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 2:42 PM UTC

nem000 wrote: post #28

I posted this article because I'm really afraid that many young entrepreneurs take Elon Musk (and Steve Jobs, etc.) as role models and get the impression that in order to be successful you have to be an abusive brick. I've recently read Walter Isaacson's "The Innovators" and there seem to be at least a couple of counterexamples (Robert Noyce for instance). Any other examples of tech leaders who lead their companies i…

Why would anyone get the impression they have to be an abusive brick? No one is claiming that, are you saying young entrepreneurs are sheep and blindly follow Elon's behavioral patterns?

This piece is okay, it provides a number of anecdotes by former employees, how do we verify these are accurate and not misleading? They square with some former reports, but do not square with other positive anecdotes I've read. This is the problem with using anecdotes as evidence.

In my view, executives and other high-ranking individuals are often mean and unfair due to extreme ambition and very high, sustained stress levels. Could someone without extreme ambition have even gotten to this point with Tesla? Do you recall how many bullshit hit pieces, legal obstacles, and issues there have been standing in Tesla's way?

Re: Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

#83

Post by pvarangot » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 2:44 PM UTC

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #30

Aromaisn wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When working for Tesla I can only assume the dynamic is different. For many it IS worth it, and will work crazy hours without recompense, because in their eyes it pushes humanity further forward. They work for the joy of innovation.

It's a luxury car. For wealthy people to show off. Don't get me wrong, I drive an EV. They're great. But let's not exaggerate what Tesla is.

Is Tesla really on the "for flexing it" side of luxury? I'm in Argentina and never met anyone who owns or drives one, let alone get into one save for on a trip and it was in a showroom. I was under the impression it's the kind of luxury were your money is worth because no one else does an EV that's as comfortable, dependable, fast and with good range.

I mean it's luxurious as eating wagyu beef is, there's a barrier to entry but not as artificial as in for example buying Gucci loafers, and if you really want the taste/experience you have to cough up the money.

Re: Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

#84

Post by gilrain » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 2:45 PM UTC

dgut wrote: post #66

People like Musk are necessary. You can't create great things without a mind outside of the norm, and a mind outside of the norm is often unstable. Most people wouldn't manage (psychologically) to be in Musk's position, much less get to the point where he is now. It isn't fair (what happened to this engineer), but hardly anything in life is fair. What's important is to realize this and be able to move on. As an engin…

There are several billion people on this planet. If we push out the asshole savants, then there will be room for the respectful savants who have been there all along.

There are too many well-educated, compassionate, clever people out there for “nobody else can do it but this specific abusive asshole” to stand up as an argument.

Re: Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

#85

Post by meowface » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 2:47 PM UTC

Even after reading this, I do think Musk genuinely, truly wants to change humanity for the better and believes that that's what he's doing. And I think he actually is to a large extent. But stuff like the examples in this article and his social media behavior show he has no problem regularly being an abusive, cruel, immature, rageful, narcissistic, despotic asshole to individual people to get there - even to the people who've sacrificed and contributed so much to help him get there.

I don't think he should be written off entirely, but he has a lot of learning and growing to do.

Re: Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

#86

Post by berberous » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 2:48 PM UTC

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #30

Aromaisn wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When working for Tesla I can only assume the dynamic is different. For many it IS worth it, and will work crazy hours without recompense, because in their eyes it pushes humanity further forward. They work for the joy of innovation.

It's a luxury car. For wealthy people to show off. Don't get me wrong, I drive an EV. They're great. But let's not exaggerate what Tesla is.

That’s true about the buyers, but go read Elon’s grand plan. He has no interest in making luxury cars, but you can’t launch a mass market cheap car from nothing. He has gone from a 250k roadster, to a 100k luxury sedan, to a 55k fully loaded sedan, and soon to a 35k sedan. As soon as he can drop it further, he will. And in 20 years, the car transportation landscape will have been transformed.

This is the typical cycle for a new good. You could have said that the first cell phone, which cost a fortune, or the first smartphone, were each luxury goods for wealthy people to show off. Which was true, but now years later, all that money drove innovation to the point where nearly the entire world has one, interconnecting humanity to a much greater degree than before.

Re: Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

#87

Post by bitwize » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 2:49 PM UTC

thisacctforreal wrote: post #19

Perhaps unsurprisingly, there are a lot of parallels to Jobs' Macintosh factory. He was similarly overeager with automation, and even coerced the executives to have the machines painted. Excerpts from Walter Isaacson's biography: https://imgur.com/a/WlJ7wsD Some videos: http://strategosinc.com/articles/strategy/apple-foxconn-stra...

Jobs kind of had a point. Americans appear to have a tolerance for filth and grime in the workplace that people from other developed countries do not. I'm to understand that German auto mechanics, for instance, keep their workplaces spotlessly clean in contrast to the "grease monkeys" that prevail in the USA. And Jobs had always wanted to bring the same style and refinement from the best European product design studios to his own products...

Re: Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

#88

Post by ceejayoz » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 2:52 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #59

adwn wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And you can also leave for any reason. It's symmetrical. You don't have this right in some countries - I'd be careful about volunteering to give it up. False dilemma [1]. There's no reason to assume that by giving up at-will employment, you'll also lose the right to resign for any reason. In fact, there are lots of countries where you can resign for any reason, but can't be fired for every reason. [1] https://en.wi…

The person I was replying to said 'at-will employment laws ... I just don't get how we just can't over turn them.' The law is both parts of it. You probably wouldn't want to overturn the law, because you'd overturn your protection as well.

We had the right to leave a job long before at-will employment laws were in vogue.

Re: Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

#89

Post by krapp » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 2:54 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #72

krapp wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And you can also leave for any reason. It's symmetrical. You don't have this right in some countries - I'd be careful about volunteering to give it up. That's not symmetrical, or if it is, it's symmetrical in the same way as "heads I win, tails you lose." Being fired and quitting both place the entirety of the risk of unemployment on the employee, there is no counterbalance of power or risk on the part of the employ…

> there is no counterbalance of power or risk on the part of the employer If there is no power or risk on the part of the employer then why do some countries have a law requiring that you give the employer a notice period? It's to reduce their risk. In my country can sued for their damages if you leave without a notice period - real damages such as having to hire more expensive temporary staff to do your job until th…

Fair enough, some risk exists, and how much probably depends on the position ... although in my country as far as I'm aware, there is no requirement to give notice (it's just a courtesy) and, of course, no such requirement exists on the part of employers.

In the linked article, it's mentioned that Elon felt a constant need to fire people that he sometimes had to be talked down from, so if the employer risk exists, it doesn't seem to be particularly high in most cases. If the risk for employers was significant, then at-will employment laws wouldn't even exist, because the entire purpose of such laws is to make it arbitrarily easy to fire employees.

The only way at-will employment could truly be symmetrical is if I could walk into work and literally fire any of my managers or the CEO with the same ease with which they could fire me.

But of course, actually applying the power dynamic of at-will employment both ways would just be insane wouldn't it?

Re: Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

#90

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 2:57 PM UTC

baldfat wrote: post #43

pjc50 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's going to be a lot of money thrown at propaganda to convince voters that requiring employers to treat employees fairly will reduce jobs. And as soon as anyone mentions unions , it's all over. Every (right-of-centre) American knows that they're the only hardworking person in the country and the entire rest of the workforce is lazy good-for-nothings who need the constant threat of firing to achieve anything. /s

> And as soon as anyone mentions unions Can we make it mandatory for everyone that is anti-Union to have to report to work on Labor Day and also they need to work the previous Saturday since it was normally a six day work week before Unions? I still don't understand American working force's love affair with the filthy rich individuals and corporations. I am constantly told, "This is just how economy works" from my Fa…

Don't forget that the filthy rich waged literal wars using hired thugs armed with guns against unions and their leaders around the turn of the century.

There's precious little mention of this in history lessons.