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Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

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Re: Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

#71
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> at-will employment laws I just don't get how we just can't over turn them politically state by state in State Elections. How is this not a thing? I live in an At Will State (PA) and it pretty much sucks to have the knowledge I can be fired for any reason and sure I still can sue but I can still lose even though I am 100% in the right.

> I just don't get how we just can't over turn them politically state by state in State Elections. How is this not a thing? Do most people want to overturn them? I think you're assuming that start state and it's perhaps not the case. > I can be fired for any reason And you can also leave for any reason. It's symmetrical. You don't have this right in some countries - I'd be careful about volunteering to give it up.

You really think the relationship between a boss and an employee is symmetrical?

Re: Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

#72
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I just don't get how we just can't over turn them politically state by state in State Elections. How is this not a thing? Do most people want to overturn them? I think you're assuming that start state and it's perhaps not the case. > I can be fired for any reason And you can also leave for any reason. It's symmetrical. You don't have this right in some countries - I'd be careful about volunteering to give it up.

>And you can also leave for any reason. It's symmetrical. You don't have this right in some countries - I'd be careful about volunteering to give it up. That's not symmetrical, or if it is, it's symmetrical in the same way as "heads I win, tails you lose." Being fired and quitting both place the entirety of the risk of unemployment on the employee, there is no counterbalance of power or risk on the part of the employ…

> there is no counterbalance of power or risk on the part of the employer

If there is no power or risk on the part of the employer then why do some countries have a law requiring that you give the employer a notice period? It's to reduce their risk.

In my country can sued for their damages if you leave without a notice period - real damages such as having to hire more expensive temporary staff to do your job until they can find someone else permanent. That's their risk.

Re: Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

#73
post #66

People like Musk are necessary. You can't create great things without a mind outside of the norm, and a mind outside of the norm is often unstable. Most people wouldn't manage (psychologically) to be in Musk's position, much less get to the point where he is now. It isn't fair (what happened to this engineer), but hardly anything in life is fair. What's important is to realize this and be able to move on. As an engin…

I agree. Without somewhat maniacal (of the obsessive enthusiasm variety) personalities grand achievements would be difficult to realize. It takes that kind of person.

I tend to dislike hatchet-jobs like this article, as they're flush with stories that appear absolutely bonkers on the surface, and very light on detail of positive interactions of any kind. The man may be a bit bananas, but all great men and women are, at least a bit. As a cautionary tale, it's a powerful article. But I hardly see it has objective in it's reporting, and serving a somewhat click-baity audience already dubious of the man.

Re: Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

#74
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I just don't get how we just can't over turn them politically state by state in State Elections. How is this not a thing? Do most people want to overturn them? I think you're assuming that start state and it's perhaps not the case. > I can be fired for any reason And you can also leave for any reason. It's symmetrical. You don't have this right in some countries - I'd be careful about volunteering to give it up.

You really think the relationship between a boss and an employee is symmetrical?

> You really think the relationship between a boss and an employee is symmetrical?

I did not say that. You've either mis-read what I said or you're wilfully misunderstanding.

I said that the law is symmetrical. I didn't say the relationship was. I also didn't say that the risk was.

Re: Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

#75

I've not read a positive article about Elon Musk for a while now. Why would anyone want to work in places like this?

> I find it interesting how many smear pieces against Musk have suddenly surfaced ever since he announced he wanted to take Telsa private again.

Wait, again? Did I miss another million dollar weed joke?

Re: Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

#76
For the last year or so, the mass of Tesla negativity around here at least used to pretend to be around their product or market or finances. Now that they're doing really well, all thats left is a torrent of increasingly comical over-the-top denunciations of Musk.

Re: Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

#77
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think, this might be true for some people in the beginning, but according to this article and other similar articles, a lot of people are leaving the company. So I'm not so sure this idealism is all that accurate. Also, you don't need to treat your employees with that level of disrespect if you want to "push humanity forward" with them.

Perhaps I kept my comment too brief. I'm not endorsing Musk's behaviour in the slightest; it's abhorrent. I was speaking solely in reference to the initial comment about the obscene hours these employees seem to do, and conjecturing a reason as to how the employee might justify it to themselves.

Obviously they’re rationalising and justifying it to themselves or they wouldn’t be doing it. I get it. But that doesn’t make it a bad decision. I’ve heard a LOT of stories where people went way above and beyond what they had to and then got dropped like they were nothing when it didn’t suit the employer anymore and very, very, very few stories where it worked out well for the employee.

Re: Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

#78
And to think that some people think of him like he is/was some sort of demi-god, saviour, genious, mankind's last hope. In fact guys like Musk or Steve Jobs are just arrogant assholes with big egos, happy to take credit for the hard work of all the fruits of their engineers doing bulk of the work.

Re: Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Every car has a chance of having a winning ticket in the glove compartment" The only problem is that then they actually have to manufacture enough cars to drive a competition like that.

Not to mention the lobbying costs of making states change their driving age limits so that children can buy cars.

When the self driving cars take over, there’s no reason not to sell to children! Think of all the money to be made!

Re: Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

#80
post #5

Yay for at-will employment laws... :-( > Over the previous year, he had been living out of a suitcase, putting in 13-hour days, seven days a week. This story is a good reminder not to do this. The company will usually not return the favour, you rarely get properly rewarded for crazy hours, yet it has a major impact on your health (both mental and physical) in the long run. Not worth it. > It was not a 9 to 5 company.…

... yet Tesla pushed the entire world to electrify transport.

I remember years ago reading article after article and forum post after forum post about how once we finally deplete oil transportation will revert to the 19th century. I don't read that anymore.

I have little doubt that without Tesla you wouldn't see a dozen other EVs on the market. You might have one or two crappy "compliance cars," but nobody else would be striving to make EVs anyone actually wants to buy.

I am not arguing with you. I don't disagree with much of anything that you wrote.

One of the things that keeps me up at night and frankly depresses me is the question: can you lead or otherwise achieve great things without being an asshole?

Steve Jobs? Asshole. Winston Churchill? Asshole. Stanley Kubrick? Asshole. Bill Gates? Quieter, but judging from MS's behavior in the 80s and 90s, asshole. I could go on.

I'm a founder and have been trying for quite a while to build something great without being an asshole or a total workaholic. It's hard, and I sometimes worry that I'm failing.

Anyone got any good inspiring counterexamples?

I have a speculation about why this might be. The human brain is wired for the much slower, simpler life of a hunter-gatherer. In a modern context most people exist in a state of low-grade depression. We're not really all that driven and our appetite for opportunity and action is calibrated for a world where opportunities for those things are much more rare.

There are ways of tweaking oneself chemically (pun intended): caffeine, amphetamine, cocaine, modafinil. Unfortunately all these have side effects. They accelerate thought but they also muddle or impair it.

But...

Occasionally you get people who are naturally wired with an extreme degree of drive and charisma. It's not that these people are necessarily smarter than everyone else, though some are certainly smart. It's that they operate naturally at a pace that fits the modern world.

Here's where the magic comes in.

Humans are deeply mimetic. We pick up and unconsciously mirror the states of those around us. It's part of why concentrated centers of excellence such as those found in urban settings are often so mysteriously alluring and powerful. When we are around people who are driven to excellence, it increases our drive to excellence.

So you get this positive emotional-mimetic field around these people. Everyone else around them gets tweaked up too.

Unfortunately these traits seem coincident with narcissism, antisocial personality disorders, even full on psychopathy in some cases. So you have these inspiring, driven, animating assholes that seem superhumanly powerful simply because they are not (in modern terms) naturally depressed and anhedonic.

Like I said it's depressing. This is one of those thoughts where if I were proven to be wrong I'd celebrate.

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