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Amazon’s Chips Threaten Intel

nytimes.com

91–100 of 359 posts

Re: Amazon’s Chips Threaten Intel

#91
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, with networking it seems to have already happened, if I remember correctly Google also uses software defined networking based on their own hardware (not sure if FPGAs are involved)

They're definitely using miracom lanai chips for part of it at least; google engineers are the maintainers of the lanai llvm backend.

Seems odd that MS and G are the ones using special hardware, but only reach to 24 and 16 gbps respectively, while AWS hits 100 gbps networking. Is AWS already using specialized HW as well?

Re: Amazon’s Chips Threaten Intel

#92
Amazon sell compute to the world. This is vertical integration and makes sense at a certain scale. That scale has to be massive, but they appear to have reached it. They may have chosen to execute sooner if they also plan to sell the chips to hardware vendors like Dell and the financials check out.

Re: Amazon’s Chips Threaten Intel

#93
post #8

Mike Tyson said: "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face." When it comes to semiconductors I'd say: "Everyone wants to make their own chips until they have to do so at scale". (Doesn't roll of the tounge as well!) There is definitely a threat from Apple, Amazon, Google and especially China that will put Intel's market share in target distance, but making chips at scale is incredibly difficult. It's ha…

>Mike Tyson said: "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face."

Mike Tyson actually said "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth."

Re: Amazon’s Chips Threaten Intel

#94
Just yesterday, I was trying to explain to my partner (who isn't a programmer) why I think open source software and hardware is so important. My argument is that without enough core components in the industry standard tech stack being open source, the more likely companies who develop solutions will restrict user freedom.

For example, Apple has been able to own nearly their entire iDevice stack from manufacturing to silicon to firmware to OS to ecosystem. They have very little incentive to interoperate with external organizations via open standards because they own many of the pieces which need to be interoperable. Thus, they can force users and developers to use their tooling, the applications they approve of, dictate what code will run on their platform, and how easily you can inspect, modify, or repair their products.

This is all to say, it is easy to imagine a future where all performance-competitive technology is entirely built upon proprietary, locked down stacks – AND – it will be at a level of complexity and specificity that independent people simply cannot gain access to the ability to create competitive solutions. It could be back to the days of the mainframe, but worse, where only the corporations who create the technology will have access to the knowledge and tools to experiment and innovate on a competitive scale.

Amazon wants developers to build solutions entirely on top of their platform using closed source core components. They also want to control the silicon their own platform runs on. In 10 years, what else will they own, how much will this effect the freedom offered by competitors, and what impact will it all have on our freedom to build cool shit?

Re: Amazon’s Chips Threaten Intel

#95
post #30
post #8

Mike Tyson said: "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face." When it comes to semiconductors I'd say: "Everyone wants to make their own chips until they have to do so at scale". (Doesn't roll of the tounge as well!) There is definitely a threat from Apple, Amazon, Google and especially China that will put Intel's market share in target distance, but making chips at scale is incredibly difficult. It's ha…

But TSMC has demonstrated many times that they can make chips at scale. I don't see why they would fail this time.

TSMC can run the masks, but if the design is not sound, then it doesn't matter how good the transistors are. Power islands, clock domain crossings, proper DFT, DFM, etc. are all needed to get a good design.

Re: Amazon’s Chips Threaten Intel

#96
post #8

Mike Tyson said: "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face." When it comes to semiconductors I'd say: "Everyone wants to make their own chips until they have to do so at scale". (Doesn't roll of the tounge as well!) There is definitely a threat from Apple, Amazon, Google and especially China that will put Intel's market share in target distance, but making chips at scale is incredibly difficult. It's ha…

This is what Intel supporters always say till the time everyone builds those chips and there is no market left for Intel at all. It is just so sad that Intel, which had such a ferocious lead and was on the cutting edge of processor design/manufacturing, is now dying from a thousand cuts. Just look at the industry - everyone who is a major player in cloud, AI, or mobile (Apple, Huawei, & Samsung) are now in the chip b…

How is Intel dying? Losing a near monopoly is a far cry from dying.

And Amazon's Graviton/armv8 chips aren't going to be competitive for many workloads. If you look up benchmarks you'll see they generally aren't competitive in terms of performance[1].

They'll only be competitive in terms of cost (and, generally, not even performance/cost).

I'm personally pleased that there is more competition but I find that saying Intel is dying to be silly.

[1] https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=ec2-grav...

Re: Amazon’s Chips Threaten Intel

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back in about 1996, most of the profs were going on about how x86 would crumble under the weight of the ISA, and RISC was the future. One of my profs knew people at Intel, and talked of a roadmap they had for kicking butt for the next dozen years. Turns out, the road map was more or less right. Is there more roadmap?

Intel chips are RISC under the hood these days (for a long while - decade or more). They're CISC at the ASM layer before the instructions are decoded and dispatched by the microcode.

CISC is still an asset rather than a liability, though, as it means you can fit more code into cache.

Re: Amazon’s Chips Threaten Intel

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I'd say it's certainly a big risk to Intel. For one, a lot of Intel customers are going in-house with chip design. Apple on its own might not hurt much, but add a few more like Amazon or Google, and things can really unravel. If you're an integrated chip designer and you lose volume, you're in for a lot of pain. The thing that defines Amazon in recent years is their desire to make everything a third party servic…

The thing that defines Amazon in recent years is their desire to make everything a third party service (AWS, Fulfillment, etc) and they may in fact do that for their own chips. AWS was Amazon monetizing its own infrastructure. Maybe they're thinking of monetizing AWS's infrastructure? Instead of being in the gold rush, sell the pickaxes and backpacks in a general store. Then, when people realize there's a lot of mone…

AWS wasn't Amazon.com's infrastructure. The store didn't run on AWS for a long time. I believe it was more Amazon monetizing spare hardware capacity.

Re: Amazon’s Chips Threaten Intel

#99
post #76
post #70

Why ARM though? The article touts how this is a homegrown chip, and Amazon obviously has the resources to build a truly homegrown, optimized CPU. Why use ARM instead and import all of its idiosyncrasies? I guess I could ask the question more broadly. Why does every company that "designs its own chip" use ARM instead of designing its own ISA? How much work does it save? How much optimization does it forsake? I'm remin…

> how much work does it save? Really a lot of work. Software compatibility and availability will make or break a processor. Unless you own the entire stack and are willing to deal with the struggles of a custom ISA, nobody wants to make a new one - the benefits probably aren't that great.

This can't be overstated for a cloud provider, especially one like AWS that wants to run everything for everyone. ARM has good OS and compiler support, and if you want people to move some workloads off x86 to another architecture, you're gonna want that migration to be as painless as possible.
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