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Review of Mortal Republic: How Rome Fell into Tyranny

economist.com

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Re: Review of Mortal Republic: How Rome Fell into Tyranny

#31

Bit of a tangent but if this period interests you, Robert Harris has a trilogy of excellent and entertaining novels starting with Imperium that trace the rise and fall of Cicero's life, a peer of Crassus and Caesar. Highly recommended!

I am currently reading the trilogy and second the recommend.

It is told from the point of view of Tiro, slave of Cicero and inventor of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tironian_notes.

The conceit of the series is that it is actually a biography of Cicero that in really was written by Tiro but has unfortunately been lost to history since. (We know about it by references to it from other ancient works.)

Re: Review of Mortal Republic: How Rome Fell into Tyranny

#32
post #12

The economist has been freaking out about norms destruction since day 1 of the trump whitehouse. This “book review” seems like just another chance to sound their favorite alarm. Not that they’re wrong, but the people (at least almost half of them) voted for someone who promised to break these norms. As far as I’m concerned, we signed a contract for 4 years of bull in china shop. Smart people need to be focusing on he…

Andrew Johnson was a norm breaking president and the United States survived

Yeah, but Johnson survived not because anyone supported him or his policies, rather he survived because politicians wanted to protect norms. Times have changed considerably since then. I'm pretty sure politicians are far more interested in destroying norms. So I wouldn't count on the Johnson Conundrum happening again. People are out to break those norms nowadays.

Re: Review of Mortal Republic: How Rome Fell into Tyranny

#33
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This implies that once a political norm is broken, it will forever be broken. That does not bode well for our current political situation in the US.

Since there has been ongoing process in concentrating power in the federal government, which itself concentrates its power into the executive branch - and there appears to not be slowing down or reversing - the question is not if, but when the us will be under single person rule and what shape will it take.

>the question is not if, but when the us will be under single person rule and what shape will it take.

The question will remain if as long as the right to bear arms remains a right. No tyranny can survive an armed and angry population.

The problem that follows that, though, is something the French faced during their revolutionary years. We could be in for a bloodbath if we don't move correctly.

Re: Review of Mortal Republic: How Rome Fell into Tyranny

#34
post #12

The economist has been freaking out about norms destruction since day 1 of the trump whitehouse. This “book review” seems like just another chance to sound their favorite alarm. Not that they’re wrong, but the people (at least almost half of them) voted for someone who promised to break these norms. As far as I’m concerned, we signed a contract for 4 years of bull in china shop. Smart people need to be focusing on he…

If the people voted for a guy who promised to carry out genocide, would you be saying the same thing?

Re: Review of Mortal Republic: How Rome Fell into Tyranny

#35
I really love Roman history. I'm just a hobbyist here (i.e. I've read a ton of biographies on great Roman leaders), so please correct me if any of my thoughts here are incorrect.

My feeling has been that Sulla's purges were the effective end of the Republic. Rome had no bureaucracy. It instead relied on great administrators (like Pompey, for example) to carry out public work projects effectively. The conflicts of the 80s not only thinned out talent from entering into the oligarchy, it required the entry of new men or men with families with less auctoritas like Cicero and Caesar. The emergence of new men created a rift between the optimates (conservatives, traditional oligarchy) and new folks that reduced compromise and lateralized society further.

Cicero was very moderate most of his career until his attempts to split up the Caesarians after the assassination, even so he found himself butting heads with stubborns like Cato his entire life. Caesar felt as though his hand was forced in the civil war, as the optimates wanted to arrest him for his land reform a decade earlier as consul as soon as he put down his imperium from the Gallic campaigns.

I would perhaps argue that the largest parallel the US has with Republican Rome is the breakdown of compromise and trust alongside increased lateralization. One can examine vote pairing incidence in the US Senate to observe this: recently Lisa Murkowski voted "present" during the Kavanaugh vote to allow a republican colleague to go to his daughter's wedding. Vote pairing used to be commonplace, and is seen as a gesture of compromise and good will, but it is very, very rare nowadays.

Re: Review of Mortal Republic: How Rome Fell into Tyranny

#36
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since there has been ongoing process in concentrating power in the federal government, which itself concentrates its power into the executive branch - and there appears to not be slowing down or reversing - the question is not if, but when the us will be under single person rule and what shape will it take.

>the question is not if, but when the us will be under single person rule and what shape will it take. The question will remain if as long as the right to bear arms remains a right. No tyranny can survive an armed and angry population. The problem that follows that, though, is something the French faced during their revolutionary years. We could be in for a bloodbath if we don't move correctly.

I might be reaching a bit, but I'd think that, with current technology, psyops etc., it should not be that hard to defeat any rebellion before it ever starts - whether by neutralizing (not "kill" in the USA, but deincentivize, defame or frame) potential leaders or stopping public discourse from ever reaching that stage.

Re: Review of Mortal Republic: How Rome Fell into Tyranny

#37
post #17
post #12

The economist has been freaking out about norms destruction since day 1 of the trump whitehouse. This “book review” seems like just another chance to sound their favorite alarm. Not that they’re wrong, but the people (at least almost half of them) voted for someone who promised to break these norms. As far as I’m concerned, we signed a contract for 4 years of bull in china shop. Smart people need to be focusing on he…

> The economist has been freaking out about norms destruction since day 1 of the trump whitehouse. Isn't this a necessary action in order to preserve any semblance of norms? If no one said anything, we'd just silently drift to a new field, let alone a moved set of goalposts.

Approximately half the country wants the goalposts moved to the next county over and isn't picky about which direction they get moved. While I understand that someone who wants the goalposts right where they are would fight to keep them there it seems like an exercise in futility. It's not like the traditions of how government operates circa 2016 resulted in highly effective government. There's plenty of Trump administration policy things to be be angry about. Destruction of norms is not one of them IMO.

Re: Review of Mortal Republic: How Rome Fell into Tyranny

#38
post #29
post #12

The economist has been freaking out about norms destruction since day 1 of the trump whitehouse. This “book review” seems like just another chance to sound their favorite alarm. Not that they’re wrong, but the people (at least almost half of them) voted for someone who promised to break these norms. As far as I’m concerned, we signed a contract for 4 years of bull in china shop. Smart people need to be focusing on he…

Some people say that Brexit was a similar act of norm-breaking, and now the govenment is stockpiling insulin in advance of their planned disaster. The current US government is actually not all that bad in practical terms by the standards of its behaviour in the 60s and 70s, but this is mostly because it's corrupt and ineffectual. They can't even prevent their own money launderers from being jailed.

Why would they prevent it? They are just cannon fodder, for them doing time is an occupational hazard that comes with such a high service price. If they can protect the king long enough (i.e. enough news cycles that people will bore of the whole affair), then it’s job done.

Re: Review of Mortal Republic: How Rome Fell into Tyranny

#39
post #12

The economist has been freaking out about norms destruction since day 1 of the trump whitehouse. This “book review” seems like just another chance to sound their favorite alarm. Not that they’re wrong, but the people (at least almost half of them) voted for someone who promised to break these norms. As far as I’m concerned, we signed a contract for 4 years of bull in china shop. Smart people need to be focusing on he…

Andrew Johnson was a norm breaking president and the United States survived

Sure, the country survived, but did it return to the political status quo? Last I checked, presidents are still allowed to use the veto on policy proposals they disagree with, rather than it's original purpose as a constitutional defense tool.

Rome survived when their political structures fell apart in the first century BC too. Does that mean you would be equally happy to live under the thumb of Nero as you would to live in the free and open democratic society of the second century BC republic?

Re: Review of Mortal Republic: How Rome Fell into Tyranny

#40
post #12

The economist has been freaking out about norms destruction since day 1 of the trump whitehouse. This “book review” seems like just another chance to sound their favorite alarm. Not that they’re wrong, but the people (at least almost half of them) voted for someone who promised to break these norms. As far as I’m concerned, we signed a contract for 4 years of bull in china shop. Smart people need to be focusing on he…

Andrew Johnson was a norm breaking president and the United States survived

FDR was probably more of a norm breaking president than Johnson.

The jury is still out on whether or not the US will survive.

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