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Review of Mortal Republic: How Rome Fell into Tyranny

economist.com

11–20 of 88 posts

Re: Review of Mortal Republic: How Rome Fell into Tyranny

#11
post #8

The Senate binned Republicanism when they murdered the Gracchi.

Agreed. Once the taboo of violence against other officials in the state got broken, all hell broke loose.

This implies that once a political norm is broken, it will forever be broken. That does not bode well for our current political situation in the US.

Re: Review of Mortal Republic: How Rome Fell into Tyranny

#12
The economist has been freaking out about norms destruction since day 1 of the trump whitehouse. This “book review” seems like just another chance to sound their favorite alarm.

Not that they’re wrong, but the people (at least almost half of them) voted for someone who promised to break these norms. As far as I’m concerned, we signed a contract for 4 years of bull in china shop. Smart people need to be focusing on he silver lining and coming up with new, better norms and institutions that we will need when the rage winds down.

Re: Review of Mortal Republic: How Rome Fell into Tyranny

#13
post #11
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Once the taboo of violence against other officials in the state got broken, all hell broke loose.

This implies that once a political norm is broken, it will forever be broken. That does not bode well for our current political situation in the US.

Since there has been ongoing process in concentrating power in the federal government, which itself concentrates its power into the executive branch - and there appears to not be slowing down or reversing - the question is not if, but when the us will be under single person rule and what shape will it take.

Re: Review of Mortal Republic: How Rome Fell into Tyranny

#14

The Senate binned Republicanism when they murdered the Gracchi.

Sulla had an opportunity to fix everything, but he misidentified the symptoms for the disease, formalizing the cursus honorum and stripping power from the Assembly, instead of changing the incentive structure of the Senate and addressing wealth inequality.

I don't think that's systemic analysis, the governmental form of Republican Rome was based on small freehold farmers. Once they were displaced by the slave-powered Latifundia, the Homo Novus would have find a way to translate their economic power into political power, displacing the patrician class.

Re: Review of Mortal Republic: How Rome Fell into Tyranny

#16
post #12

The economist has been freaking out about norms destruction since day 1 of the trump whitehouse. This “book review” seems like just another chance to sound their favorite alarm. Not that they’re wrong, but the people (at least almost half of them) voted for someone who promised to break these norms. As far as I’m concerned, we signed a contract for 4 years of bull in china shop. Smart people need to be focusing on he…

The thing about norms is that, once they're broken, it's very hard to un-break them.

It is in every politician's best interest to obstruct their opponents, prevent their opponents from voting, destroy ballots, jail their enemies on made-up charges, halt investigations into themselves, pack the court that will oversee their cases with allies, etc.

"Democratic norms" are a gentlemen's agreement to not use these highly effective tactics against each other, in the mutual interest of republicanism and democracy. They are highly advantageous, but the consequences are dire.

This is why, during the Obama presidency when Republicans first started deploying them, they called it "the nuclear option". Once one side has gone nuclear, the other side must reciprocate or die.

Re: Review of Mortal Republic: How Rome Fell into Tyranny

#17
post #12

The economist has been freaking out about norms destruction since day 1 of the trump whitehouse. This “book review” seems like just another chance to sound their favorite alarm. Not that they’re wrong, but the people (at least almost half of them) voted for someone who promised to break these norms. As far as I’m concerned, we signed a contract for 4 years of bull in china shop. Smart people need to be focusing on he…

> The economist has been freaking out about norms destruction since day 1 of the trump whitehouse.

Isn't this a necessary action in order to preserve any semblance of norms? If no one said anything, we'd just silently drift to a new field, let alone a moved set of goalposts.

Re: Review of Mortal Republic: How Rome Fell into Tyranny

#18
post #11
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Once the taboo of violence against other officials in the state got broken, all hell broke loose.

This implies that once a political norm is broken, it will forever be broken. That does not bode well for our current political situation in the US.

It is hard to un-break democratic norms, but there is no theoretical reason it can't be done. It'll just take a lot of work and some major changes.

Here's a little game that pop historian Mike Duncan released a little while ago. See if you can figure out the political moves you have to make to pull the Roman Republic back from the brink: https://www.riddle.com/showcase/165065/narrative

Re: Review of Mortal Republic: How Rome Fell into Tyranny

#19
https://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/c...

Let's not forget that Rome was broke when it met its demise, having debased its currency as tax revenues declined, and after taxing land owners to the point that additional revenue was unavailable and - anecdotally at least - some land owners sold themselves into tax-free slavery rather than face the consequences of non-payment.

Re: Review of Mortal Republic: How Rome Fell into Tyranny

#20
I really enjoyed Dan Carlin’s ‘Celtic holocaust’ that went at length into the character and motivations of Julius Caesar. What I mostly appreciate in listening to Carlin is his ability to sympathize with the people living through the moment but being respectful not to bias his reading of history so it doesnt reflect modern wishes and thinking. It’s in this vein I criticize the book as it sounds like it’s applying modern realities (income inequality, discontent, lack of democracy etc) to the past as a way to justify making predictions you want to see today (popular revolt / trump is evil and will be toppled etc what you will)

But I haven’t read the book so I could be talking out of my ass

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