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Gut bacteria may offer a treatment for autism

economist.com

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Re: Gut bacteria may offer a treatment for autism

#161

Post by brendanmc6 »

impy wrote: post #154
CM30 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am also intrigued about what this means for criminality and how the line between illness and evil is likely to shift given the role of microorganisms in behavioral dysfunction; and more broadly, we don't like to admit it, but it seems that completely amoral factors can be the cause of moral, amoral, or immoral behavior. That line is already in trouble because of genetics research, psychology research, etc showing…

> That line is already in trouble because of genetics research, psychology research, etc showing that people's actions are less based on deliberate choice than they'd like to believe. I'd like to know more about this. Do you have sources for these?

Sam Harris explores these topics in his book Free Will, I wasn't blown away by the read but would still recommended it if you already find yourself fascinated by the discussion.

Re: Gut bacteria may offer a treatment for autism

#162

Post by bePoliteAlways »

intralizee wrote: post #119

Free will is an illusion and thus choices don't exist.

There are two points which may appear contradictory but may not be contracditory.

1) People act according to past experience, environment and internal biology. 2) People environment also consist of the knowledge that "For any given situation there are many options and if one looks hard and tries one may choose an appropiate response". If the society emphasize on this aspect a person might be more willing to make a "choice". Of course not everyone will respond the same way to this knowledge.

1) doesn't imply that there is no "choice" and 2) doesn't imply that we are not "programmed" to behave in certain ways. Actually it might be that 2) is helping us to "program" people in certain way.

In the context of "crime and punishment", as we get better at 2) or someother scientific development we can reduce the need for "punishment".

The best analogy I could think of explaining the above language play on mind is following. Say you are training a new chess player to improve the game. You can say one of the two things: 1) For a given board position there are limited options. 2) For a given board position there are many options.

While both being true on thinking deeply they can have different effect on the person. It also matters what we emphasize. For a person thinking less 2) may be better thing to emphasize. For a person thinking lot 1) may be better to emphasize.

Re: Gut bacteria may offer a treatment for autism

#163

Post by 75dvtwin »

test6554 wrote: post #116
gboudrias wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly, almost no one in NA justice systems talks about evil. The causality between life events leading to crime is often ridiculously clear, and choice barely factors into it. Believing in evil is its own kind of privilege. I for one have now seen a lot of criminal cases, and I've only seen sick people and people following the path laid before them. No evil in sight, but the concept's very existence allows fo…

Theres always a choice, and choices have consequences. The kind of people who believe they had no choice are the worst because it shows a total lack of remorse for their selfish decisions. Phrases like “Look what YOU made me do” and “It’s societies fault” are warning signs that they learned nothing and you have a likely repeat offender on your hands.

I do not know how to express this in civilized terms.

But I feel that biological parents that raised children, who later on become evil and take other people lives -- are responsible, some how.

I am mentally, far from being contempt, with all these psychopaths (who (most of them), also have seen at some point in their lives, have seen a professional phycologist, regularly) -- go and kill defenseless kids or church/synagogue goers.

These evil humans (if they can be called that) -- should not have existed, and if they existed -- their evilness must, somehow, have been detected earlier. And that's where the parents, and, perhaps, the meds-prescribing phycologists/physiatrists come in.

I realized, that in not too distant past -- the kings and czar's suppressed uprising by executed not just the active uprisers, but their whole families, including wives and kids. As a deterrent.

I am not talking about that, but, may be there a way that parents can be held accountable to the actions of their children (even if they are more adults by the time they commit heinous crimes).

May be that will also act as deterrent against pure evil that visits those humans.

Re: Gut bacteria may offer a treatment for autism

#165

Post by intralizee »

bePoliteAlways wrote: post #162
intralizee wrote: post #119

Free will is an illusion and thus choices don't exist.

There are two points which may appear contradictory but may not be contracditory. 1) People act according to past experience, environment and internal biology. 2) People environment also consist of the knowledge that "For any given situation there are many options and if one looks hard and tries one may choose an appropiate response". If the society emphasize on this aspect a person might be more willing to make a "c…

People do not make choices. The programming we inherit from society, produces different outcomes because the events are in a linear order and the different orders between persons matter! Everyone seems to not grasp how important "order of knowledge" is when digested and how it will alter the person in comparison to another person who has the same knowledge but in a slightly different order of the linear input system we all share being the brain.

Punishment is the cruelest and most dehumanizing thing in this world by mankind. I view "original sin" being born into humankind "assuming free will" is correct. The barbaric justification for punishment is we will construct a deterrent for other humans. Yet, it's ignoring how we are punishing a person who had no control by "the universe not favoring the person" and resulting in others "being favored by the universe" from punishing the person resulting in deterrent to others. The whole thing is madness because it's the system that is flawed not the individual.

Re: Gut bacteria may offer a treatment for autism

#166

Post by wisty »

gboudrias wrote: post #44
theprotocol wrote: post #2

Without S. Boulardii, I am a neurotic mess who can't digest anything at all nor think straight after eating anything, so I'm inclined to believe this hypothesis. I am also intrigued about what this means for criminality and how the line between illness and evil is likely to shift given the role of microorganisms in behavioral dysfunction; and more broadly, we don't like to admit it, but it seems that completely amora…

Interestingly, almost no one in NA justice systems talks about evil. The causality between life events leading to crime is often ridiculously clear, and choice barely factors into it. Believing in evil is its own kind of privilege. I for one have now seen a lot of criminal cases, and I've only seen sick people and people following the path laid before them. No evil in sight, but the concept's very existence allows fo…

A lot of murderers are low socioeconomic status males, but the vast majority of low socioeconomic status males are not murderers. It seems a lot like there's a choice.

Re: Gut bacteria may offer a treatment for autism

#167

Post by rhizome »

intralizee wrote: post #132
test6554 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you assume free will is an illusion, then it would make more sense to treat those who threaten society as faulty machinery and scrap them. Assuming people can admit and learn from their mistakes means you can focus on rehabilitation and treat them with dignity.

No, it makes more sense to fix the broken system that resulted in the faulty machinery and to fix the faulty person as well. If one cannot fix the person, it doesn't make sense to scrap them if we put humanity at the highest regard with understanding free will is an illusion. We would just have to prevent the person from being able to do the wrong and understand punishment is against humanity in the equation with han…

Wouldn't the choice to fix a broken system require free will not to be an illusion?

Re: Gut bacteria may offer a treatment for autism

#169

Post by gboudrias »

ip26 wrote: post #80
gboudrias wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly, almost no one in NA justice systems talks about evil. The causality between life events leading to crime is often ridiculously clear, and choice barely factors into it. Believing in evil is its own kind of privilege. I for one have now seen a lot of criminal cases, and I've only seen sick people and people following the path laid before them. No evil in sight, but the concept's very existence allows fo…

Do you consider sociopathy and psychopathy to be sicknesses?

Someone else already replied, I agree with them, yes. I'm curious if anyone wouldn't?

Re: Gut bacteria may offer a treatment for autism

#170

Post by bePoliteAlways »

intralizee wrote: post #165
bePoliteAlways wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two points which may appear contradictory but may not be contracditory. 1) People act according to past experience, environment and internal biology. 2) People environment also consist of the knowledge that "For any given situation there are many options and if one looks hard and tries one may choose an appropiate response". If the society emphasize on this aspect a person might be more willing to make a "c…

People do not make choices. The programming we inherit from society, produces different outcomes because the events are in a linear order and the different orders between persons matter! Everyone seems to not grasp how important "order of knowledge" is when digested and how it will alter the person in comparison to another person who has the same knowledge but in a slightly different order of the linear input system…

I also feel the Punishment is "cruel" but I am unable to give alternative to society yet. Saints/religion has given some alternative but not everyone follows.
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