Really good video of the attack in action here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR8RrmEizVg
Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles
431–440 of 449 posts
Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles
#432Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, I was making a joke, but I was also semi-serious. I personally wouldn't mind that the car unlocks based on the fob's proximity, but requires insertion of the key for ignition. I currently drive a 2009 car with the usual key fob and my biggest issue with it is not having to insert it to start the car, but unlocking the doors while my hands are full. Once I'm seated in the driver's seat I'm not carrying anything a…
Then the thief could hide in the back, and rob you while you were driving down the interstate (ie. he could hold a knife to your throat and force you to drive to location that was hidden from public view). I don't know how realistic this is, but it is far more dire.
Which the theives in the article could have done anyway.
Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles
#433This seems like as good a HN thread as any to ask this, since I've been looking into it recently. What are some cars to look into if I'm interested in the following things? Or what are some cars that I should specifically avoid? - Low appeal to thieves interested in stealing the vehicle itself, due to the hardware (locks and whatever else) being exceptionally difficult to deal with - Some sort of secure/hidden compar…
Get a manual, nobody steals a manual.
Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles
#434Earlier quoted context omitted.
What strange is, I can see unlocking the car and even starting it with this attack -- but do the cars not continually (or at least every minute or two) revalidate the presence of the key? Once they got very far away from the house, the car should shut off. Or so I would think.
> Once they got very far away from the house, the car should shut off. Or so I would think. In the event that the actual owner of the car left their fob at their previous stop and discovers this fact 40 miles down the highway later, if the car were to stop, the driver is now stranded with a car that won't start. As it is now, as long as there is enough gas in the tank, the owner can just drive back and get it.
That's why the car should stop after less than a mile, or even not go into drive at all, rather than driving 40 miles. In your scenario, how will the driver discover that the key is missing without turning the car off and then finding herself unable to turn it back on?
Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles
#435Earlier quoted context omitted.
About half of those problems don't really exist, in my opinion. I've washed the keyfob (it is waterproof), it has a built in key if the car battery is ever dead, I've never actually had to replace a fob battery. Personally I don't carry any keys so having a small round-ish object in my pocket that doesn't stab me in the leg when I sit down is a preferable situation.
Maybe I've just met an abnormal amount of lucky people, but in my role as one of the more mechanically inclined among my friends and family, I've seen three people completely locked out of their cars when under-door or other concealed keyholes have needed to be used. I'm not sure if it's been from rust, lack of use + time, or ice, but unused or backup keyholes on vehicles seem to fail far more often than those used f…
That is a good point. I've never had to test the theory that my backup key would work in a pinch. Come to think of it, I don't actually recall anybody in my circle of friends and family having any issues either. Cars sure have become reliable in the past 30 years. I also live somewhere relatively mild where we don't put salt (for the most part) on the roads in the winter so corrosion is less common.
Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles
#436Earlier quoted context omitted.
I imagine a lot of people don't use a key to get in their house, nor do they use the front door. Hit the button on the garage door remote, drive in, walk into house.
I also lock that door in case a second garage door is left unlocked. Then again, I lock doors during the day when I'm home out of habit. Did this before a recent break-in attempt, so hardly discouraged by that.
If I ever have a break-in I imagine it will immediately change my habits. Knock-on-wood, has never happened to me yet.
I do have auto-closers on the garage doors, however, because my kids do have a habit of leaving them open otherwise. Of course, they also keep leaving the man-doors unlocked all day as well.
Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles
#437I imagine improvements to the key fob could be made that would require a mechanical coupling with the car in order to start it. That would circumvent this attack.
Or just requiring the key to be inside the car. It would only need more antennas.
Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles
#438Earlier quoted context omitted.
The difference is that you can start up your engine (read: have AC on so that your car is the right temperature when you get to it) and also unlock the doors for others from far away If that functionality was encapsulated on a smart phone, that would be fine too.
My 2007 vehicle does this just fine. And any signal from the fob require a press of the button. These key fobs use rolling codes as well. So you would need to capture a button press while the remote is too far away from the car to receive it. Then replay it to the vehicle. Of course you still need the key to unlock the steering wheel and of you touch the break without inserting the key, the ignition cuts off. I'm not…
> I'm not sure why we are going backwards in the security department here.
Consumer products nearly always go features that have whizz-bang "it's so convenient" demo value, until a problem like this becomes prevalent enough to end up on everyone's nightly news.
Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles
#439Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hm, good point. I guess I don't really know how these systems work. I assumed there was some kind of rotating value but I have no reason to believe this. Based on these attacks it seems the keys are really just sending the same signal every time. That appears to be a real shortcoming of the design.
I think you’re not understanding the attack. It could be a unique, unpredictable signal every single time and the relay attack would work just fine. The devices intend to use distance to prevent this, with distance determined by strength of signal. The relay captures the challenge, passes it to the fob and then passes the response back to the car, boosting the signal if necessary. The timing on this is fast enough th…
Ok yes, I was confused. Thank you for spelling that out for me, now I understand what is happening.
Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles
#440Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't get the downvotes for this. A dog who doesn't like strangers is a pretty traditional security system, and is much, much more secure than a locked door.
It really really isn't. That stranger can become an instant friend with some food. There was a show once where an ex-burglar would break into people's homes to show how easy it was. People would say, "there's no way he's getting past my dog!" and the guy would just open up the fridge and throw all the meat on the floor. End of problem.
That is evidence that it's easy to get past an untrained dog. It's not evidence that it's easier to get past an untrained dog than a locked door.