Canada has arrested Huawei’s global chief financial officer in Vancouver • Hacker News Board

Re: Canada has arrested Huawei’s global chief financial officer in Vancouver

#191

Post by wtfstatists » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 1:44 AM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #157

wtfstatists wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Huawei stole a Canadian company's technology Then Canada gets to do the arresting and jailing. Re next 2 points: If you want to justify violance you need stronger triggers. Those 2 just give the US right to ban the Huawei from country or using the USD. This looks like US doing it because it can. But then US is not facing USSR whose going to die from self-inflicted wounds. China have the most capitalist companies (A…

> then Canada gets to do the arresting That’s...what happened. > if you want to justify violance you need stronger triggers Violating sanctions is a criminal offense under U.S. and Canadian law. Huawei chose to do business in America and Canada. Its executive chose to travel to Canada. This is a difficult story to mangle into a morality play.

No Canada is arresting on behalf of US. On the contrary, Huawei is building 5g infra for Canada.

> Violating sanctions is a criminal offense under U.S. and Canadian law.

Just because its legal does not mean there wont be an aggressive reaction[1]. China will probably respond with force. Huawei with market exit. Then there are other actors who would respond in there own way we would never know about. US probably going to take net-hurt from this.

Do you want to hurt US market/USD ? Because thats what use of your justifications will do.

[1] edit: By that I mean non-US actors have not agreed to react aggressively. Legal implies that only US persons have.

Re: Canada has arrested Huawei’s global chief financial officer in Vancouver

#192

Post by wybiral » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 1:46 AM UTC

codedokode wrote: post #189

dreamcompiler wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article suggests she took US-made products and routed them to Iran through Huawei. That's a US crime, and the US can issue a warrant for her arrest, and if she shows up in a country with extradition to the US, she can get arrested. Which is apparently what happened.

Why don't they arrest US citizens who sold those US products instead?

Because the actual crime was the act of selling the tech to Iran.

Re: Canada has arrested Huawei’s global chief financial officer in Vancouver

#193

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 1:50 AM UTC

DINKDINK wrote: post #137

bilbo0s wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is this, you're always violating some law. Even in the US, there are over 20,000 laws and regulations at the federal level alone. In China, there are even more. Any small foreign operator in China naive enough to assert with 100% confidence that they are not in violation of any of those codes is being dangerously foolish. So here's the thing, I actually agree with you. What China will do, they will do out…

>The problem is this, you're always violating some law. "21 USC §§331, 333, 343 & 21 CFR §133.113(a)(3) make it a federal crime for a cheesemaker to sell cheddar cheese unless the curd was matted into a cohesive mass." https://twitter.com/crimeaday

[deleted]

Re: Canada has arrested Huawei’s global chief financial officer in Vancouver

#194

Post by CoolGuySteve » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 1:54 AM UTC

estsauver wrote: post #22

I would not look forward to being an American businessman abroad in China right now. I think we're all used to the fiction that we live in a world that's totally governed by fairness and laws. That's been a pretty useful fiction for a long time, and in (some) of the developed world that's basically been how it's worked. But I really wonder how many shocks this system can take. I would bet money that an important US e…

Concerning realpolitik, this isn't even the first time it's been used on a telecom executive in the US.

Joseph Nacchio, the CEO of Qwest, was jailed for insider trading in 2001 and wasn't allowed to use his defence in court that it was retaliation for refusing NSA data requests.

Re: Canada has arrested Huawei’s global chief financial officer in Vancouver

#195

Post by gus_massa » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 1:58 AM UTC

hinkley wrote: post #168

lustysocietyorg wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A country locking up a foreigner for breaking their laws It is absolutely crazy to think that US law should apply worldwide. The article does not even mention if Wanzhou Meng is US citizen who broke US law in the US. This case might be retaliation and fear mongering similar to the case of Julian Assange which is pure retaliation and fear mongering.

While the US won’t prosecute you for stealing in, say, Argentina, there are laws on the books that prohibit all citizens from doing business with certain nations, period. They’re calling them US sanctions but the UN has also imposed sanctions on Iran. That may explain why Canada arested him. One signatory picking up a person on behalf of a more motivated one.

If an USA or EU pays a bribe in Argentina, they may be prosecuted in their origin country. Also, the legislation about bribes abroad is very different in USA than in the EU, so when there is an important bidding process where there are companies from both sites, there are always problems and accusations afterwards. See for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens#2005_and_continuing:_w...

Re: Canada has arrested Huawei’s global chief financial officer in Vancouver

#196

Post by DenisM » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 2:02 AM UTC

amingilani wrote: post #21

fosk wrote: post #3

Can somebody explain to me on what authority the US can request the arrest of a Chinese national on Canadian soil for any action they took while conducting operations of a Chinese organization headquartered in China?

This comment is getting a lot of downvotes for a fairly straightforward question, so I just want to remind everyone about one of the HN guidelines: Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

The tone of the question reads angry and incredulous, not curious, hence the downvotes.

You will also note that the poster of the question never came back to acknowledge the work people put into replying and explaining the situation. I believe that eduction wasn't the intent here.

Re: Canada has arrested Huawei’s global chief financial officer in Vancouver

#197

Post by manfredo » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 2:03 AM UTC

floatboth wrote: post #101

dsl wrote: post #47

A tl;dr to address some of the obvious questions here: In 2013 she set up a Hong Kong shell company called Skycom Tech. That company (attempted to) purchase HP computers from the United States and resell them to Iran. The deal did not involve Huawei products, but many of the documents related to the deal were labeled "Huawei confidential" indicating they created the shell company to conceal their involvement. She bro…

It's kinda scary that the US can do anything about straw purchases. US company sells to HK company, the stuff becomes property of HK company, US should be completely out of the goddamn picture at this point, HK company sells to Iran, done. The US govt must not be able to do anything about the HK company's intention to resell.

This is essentially saying that it should be legal to circumvent embargos. I understand that prohibiting resale can be abused - it's illegal to prohibit resale under many circumstances in the US under antitrust law for example. But that only applies within the US market. The example here is a company deliberately breaching an embargo. If we allowed these sorts of sales then this could prompt the US to take even more drastic measures to enforce its sanctions, like blockading Iranian ports.

Re: Canada has arrested Huawei’s global chief financial officer in Vancouver

#198

Post by Benjamin_Dobell » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 2:06 AM UTC

Retric wrote: post #181

DINKDINK wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The problem is this, you're always violating some law. "21 USC §§331, 333, 343 & 21 CFR §133.113(a)(3) make it a federal crime for a cheesemaker to sell cheddar cheese unless the curd was matted into a cohesive mass." https://twitter.com/crimeaday

Look for laws to be enforced cops need to be aware of them. Specialists exist both on the government side as say food safty inspectors etc, and the private side as compliance officers. So, rules like this are not obscure for people building factory’s to manufacture cheddar and your local cops are not going to know about this crap they are searching your house for something else. This actually works really well, as we…

It's just a bit odd that highly specific examples like this make it into written law. A pretty clear example of what happens when you have a Government that can be heavily influenced by corporate lobbying.

I don't think your average reasonable person is in opposition to requirements to label food correctly and not mislead consumers. These things are already written in law, in the case of food it's governed by the FDA. However, when we start including overly specific laws like this, of which this is but one of many (sheesh, check-out what was in the TPP), then every other company in every other industry wants the same treatment, and we end up with a convoluted mess that we have today. This is a problem because your average citizen can't possibly keep up with all this; but more importantly these overly specific laws are a nightmare when it comes time to introduce new legislation. So much time is wasted on garbage like this.

The TPP actually had plenty of reasonable components to it, but it was also filled to the brim with corporate garbage. It's hard enough to form trade agreements and pass legislation without corporations insisting their obscure needs must be met. Particularly when legislation and agreements are either signed and passed as entire unit, or not at all. It just wastes everyone's time when there's a few odd sticking points holding up the whole process.

Re: Canada has arrested Huawei’s global chief financial officer in Vancouver

#199

Post by DenisM » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 2:07 AM UTC

msie wrote: post #66

anonymous5133 wrote: post #30

I also wonder what this is going to do to Canada's real estate market considering that Canada has basically been a "safe haven" for Chinese nationals to flock to basically launder their money.

It's sad how this has become a fact because it's insinuated enough times in the press by the same few reporters. First it was Chinese foreigners buying up all the real estate, but that was proven false. Now, it's all these foreigners are laundering their money. Yes, a few (although the RCMP is having trouble with their money laundering case) but not all. The press simplifies and that becomes the reality that everyone…

> First it was Chinese foreigners buying up all the real estate, but that was proven false.

How was it proven false?

Re: Canada has arrested Huawei’s global chief financial officer in Vancouver

#200

Post by eigenvector » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 2:07 AM UTC

ptero wrote: post #64

wybiral wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But yeah, if this is the game that the nations are going to play, then you don't want to be the poor schmuck sitting in a Chinese prison for 10 years just so they can make a point. Facilitating deals with Iran to deliver US products in defiance of US sanctions seems like something the average schmuck hopefully isn't getting mixed up in. It's not quite the same as accidentally violating some random domestic business…

But on general grounds, why a Chinese company should comply with sanctions between US and Iran? And why a fourth country is arresting Chinese citizens violating US rules? I am sure most of us break UAE laws on being with members of opposite gender without a chaperone and even post pictures of class reunions, etc. But I'm not expecting to be arrested for this while visiting, say, Sweden.

Well for one thing, Canadian (and many other) extradition treaties require the notion of dual criminality - the thing you're being extradited for has to also be a crime in Canada.

Second, Canada (and most democracies) does not extradite to countries where the Canadian courts are not satisfied you will get a fair trial, or where the person would face capital punishment. So all these comparisons of being extradited to Russia or China or any other dictatorship are not exactly valid. That kind of thing is not on the table.

In fact right now Canada has a major dispute with China because the Canadian government won't return even run of the mill Chinese criminals because they will likely be executed after a sham trial in China.