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Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

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Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#291

Post by gammateam »

HorizonXP wrote: post #72

This happened to a family member of mine, here in Toronto. Lost their gorgeous M5. Their kid normally wakes up in the middle of the night, except this time, he freaked right out like he was scared. They were wondering what was going on with him, when one of the parents heard the M5 turn on (it's pretty distinct). "That's my car!" His wife said, "Naw, you're crazy, no way." Sure enough, enough, key fob attack and thef…

So...

Free cars?

Whats the yield on the secondary markets for these hot vehicles since the VIN is compromised, a new license plate is needed and a thorough scrubbing has to happen

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#292

Post by alistproducer2 »

closeparen wrote: post #106
alistproducer2 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. A physical switch on the key itself which opened a circuit to the decryption key would mean the key would need to physically be in the possession of the driver.

That’s what we had 10 years ago.

And apparently what we had 10 years ago was better as people couldn't steal your car without touching it.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#293

Post by mulmen »

frankchn wrote: post #274
askvictor wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what problem does keyless entry/start aim to solve?

It is a convenience feature -- you don't have to fish your keys out of your pocket/handbag and press a button to unlock your car doors or to start the car. So long as you have the key somewhere on you (bag/handbag/pocket), you can unlock and start the car.

It’s really pretty impressive too. I once tried (accidentally) to lock my key in the trunk of my car and it refused to close the latch.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#294

Post by [deleted] »

verelo wrote: post #286

My car was recently “broken into”, it’s a Mercedes C400, i thought it to be fairly secure so my assumption has been that i forgot to lock the car. I just double checked, and the car has an “auto-lock” feature and it is already turned on...so...did this happen to me? I just want an off switch in my fob, so i can disable it at night. More fancy solutions would be a motion sensor on the fob to only power it when had rec…

[deleted]

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#295

Post by alistproducer2 »

raisedbyninjas wrote: post #102
alistproducer2 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. A physical switch on the key itself which opened a circuit to the decryption key would mean the key would need to physically be in the possession of the driver.

This eliminates all of the convenience of keyless entry/start.

I suspect many people will happily give up such a convenience if it means they won't have their cars stolen so easily.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#296

Post by burtonator »

jamescostian wrote: post #116
nkrisc wrote: post #105

I imagine improvements to the key fob could be made that would require a mechanical coupling with the car in order to start it. That would circumvent this attack.

I'm not sure if this is a joke about old keys being better, but I'd argue you could have the benefits of new keys and old keys combined if you just made it so that new keys have to be inserted into some compartment inside of cars, where they are authenticated by those cars. You can imagine a fob with a USB that has a different authentication code than the wireless one it sends out, and unless the USB is plugged into…

I'm not sure why we can't have some sort of challenge response protocol to prevent MITM...

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#297

Post by stri8ed »

HorizonXP wrote: post #72

This happened to a family member of mine, here in Toronto. Lost their gorgeous M5. Their kid normally wakes up in the middle of the night, except this time, he freaked right out like he was scared. They were wondering what was going on with him, when one of the parents heard the M5 turn on (it's pretty distinct). "That's my car!" His wife said, "Naw, you're crazy, no way." Sure enough, enough, key fob attack and thef…

What are the thief's doing with these cars?

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#298

Post by mikeash »

mulmen wrote: post #289
mikeash wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vulnerability is pretty much inherent to the idea. No amount of encryption can protect you from a relay attack. The only foolproof mitigation is to enforce a short round trip time to ensure the fob is actually close to the car, but with the short distances involved that means the fob has to generate and transmit a response within a few nanoseconds.

Is it true that encryption cannot proetect from a relay attack? If the encrypted payload is passed based on some kind of pre-shared secret (pairing) then each message should be unpredictable to a third party right?

The third party doesn’t need to predict it, just repeat it. The relay doesn’t need to understand or modify the message, just pass it along.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#299

Post by calmyournerves »

verelo wrote: post #286

My car was recently “broken into”, it’s a Mercedes C400, i thought it to be fairly secure so my assumption has been that i forgot to lock the car. I just double checked, and the car has an “auto-lock” feature and it is already turned on...so...did this happen to me? I just want an off switch in my fob, so i can disable it at night. More fancy solutions would be a motion sensor on the fob to only power it when had rec…

You can turn off keyless-go by double pressing the close button. The LED on the key will light up (short - long) as a confirmation.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#300

Post by pontifier »

I'm convinced that time of flight analysis could solve this problem, and many others. If someone could beat that, then they deserve much more than just a new car.

I've currently got a blockchain "proof of proximity" idea on one of my back burners.

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