Why Do Hospitals Hate Sleep So Much? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Do Hospitals Hate Sleep So Much?

#461

Post by zanny » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 8:18 PM UTC

GCA10 wrote: post #420

shados wrote: post #228

I'll push this one step further: why is our entire society built around the idea that sleep literally doesn't matter? - Elementary school starting so early all the kids are half asleep in class. - College + Sleep? Not gonna happen. - 24 hour construction in certain part of NYC, check! - Most cities quiet hours are very precisely 8 hours. Hope your days start at 6:30/7:00 and you're falling asleep precisely at 11pm, a…

We had a brave school superintendent a few years ago who tried to get our local high school started at 9 a.m. instead of the traditional much earlier start. (Classes at 8 a.m., with many extra-curricular activities like band practice and swim practice at 7 a.m.) This is in the western U.S. All the sleep-cycle research is on his side. And he was friendly, focused and persistent. But his campaign failed. A later school…

Its always bizarre that they don't have activities involving daylight first so that school could run into the dark and nobody would care because you are indoors anyway.

Its basically that society used to require daylight to get anything done two centuries ago, and most people worked the farm by daylight, so fast forward generations and centuries and we are still structuring our lives around that - such that we are actually outside in the dark and doing our main activities indoors during the day.

Humanity is nothing if not set in its ways.

Re: Why Do Hospitals Hate Sleep So Much?

#462

Post by zanny » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 8:23 PM UTC

kerbalspacepro wrote: post #241

cstross wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You were dealing with doctors and nurses, right? One group runs a gauntlet of fire by sleep deprivation during pre-med training: with on-call work hours up to 120 hours a week. And the other group are typically on shift rotas so their sleep patterns are permanently disrupted. I'm going to call it for them being oblivious to the sleep requirements of ordinary human beings, because these professions are self-selecting…

Why do doctors not get sleep? It is still the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Start up founders? Fine. Grocery store bagger? I don't care. BUT A PERSON IN CHARGE OF TOUCHING (inside) MY BODY? I want their Fitbit sleep records for the last month showing a consistent 7 hours of sleep.

I get terrible headaches if I sleep less than 8 hours and I'm 27. Always wanted to have more time in my day but I get no time if I can't focus or function.

I'd hope someone doing something as high risk and important as surgery would be getting as much as they need regardless of how much that is.

Re: Why Do Hospitals Hate Sleep So Much?

#463

Post by jfk13 » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 8:23 PM UTC

andybak wrote: post #391

shados wrote: post #228

I'll push this one step further: why is our entire society built around the idea that sleep literally doesn't matter? - Elementary school starting so early all the kids are half asleep in class. - College + Sleep? Not gonna happen. - 24 hour construction in certain part of NYC, check! - Most cities quiet hours are very precisely 8 hours. Hope your days start at 6:30/7:00 and you're falling asleep precisely at 11pm, a…

My theory is that there is an eternal secret war between morning people and evening people and the morning people are winning. Resistance must be done in secret but fight back in every way you can.

The trouble is that by the time the evening people get going, the morning people have already defined the world's schedules.

Re: Why Do Hospitals Hate Sleep So Much?

#464

Post by war1025 » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 8:34 PM UTC

andybak wrote: post #391

shados wrote: post #228

I'll push this one step further: why is our entire society built around the idea that sleep literally doesn't matter? - Elementary school starting so early all the kids are half asleep in class. - College + Sleep? Not gonna happen. - 24 hour construction in certain part of NYC, check! - Most cities quiet hours are very precisely 8 hours. Hope your days start at 6:30/7:00 and you're falling asleep precisely at 11pm, a…

My theory is that there is an eternal secret war between morning people and evening people and the morning people are winning. Resistance must be done in secret but fight back in every way you can.

As father of three (a 3 year old and 1 year old twins), I've found that when we only had one kid, our schedule remained basically the same. But now with three, we are somewhat forced to shift toward being morning people. With multiple, good luck getting them back down to sleep if the sun is up. By the time you succeed, the others will decide to be awake. Also morning routines take longer, so you need to start your day earlier to compensate.

I feel like a big part of it is that very young children are geared towards being early (at least from my perspective) risers. Parents end up shifting their day to account for that. And then as kids get older, their rhythms start moving to starting the day later, but by that time the parents' routine is molded around being up early.

Not sure where I'm going with this exactly, just an observation of mine.

Re: Why Do Hospitals Hate Sleep So Much?

#465

Post by pier25 » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 8:49 PM UTC

bpyne wrote: post #285

shados wrote: post #228

I'll push this one step further: why is our entire society built around the idea that sleep literally doesn't matter? - Elementary school starting so early all the kids are half asleep in class. - College + Sleep? Not gonna happen. - 24 hour construction in certain part of NYC, check! - Most cities quiet hours are very precisely 8 hours. Hope your days start at 6:30/7:00 and you're falling asleep precisely at 11pm, a…

My wife's background is in childhood development. Her job involves keeping up with studies in the field. I remember her talking about this issue. There's evidence that school start times should be flipped for elementary and high school students: elementary going in earlier and high school later. Teenagers need more sleep due to their brains re-wiring, so the reasoning goes. Keep in mind that in our school district, e…

> Teenagers need more sleep due to their brains re-wiring, so the reasoning goes.

I work in the education industry, and the education experts in our company have been saying this for years.

Re: Why Do Hospitals Hate Sleep So Much?

#466

Post by sharadov » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 8:49 PM UTC

shados wrote: post #228

I'll push this one step further: why is our entire society built around the idea that sleep literally doesn't matter? - Elementary school starting so early all the kids are half asleep in class. - College + Sleep? Not gonna happen. - 24 hour construction in certain part of NYC, check! - Most cities quiet hours are very precisely 8 hours. Hope your days start at 6:30/7:00 and you're falling asleep precisely at 11pm, a…

This is bullshit bravado, even when increasingly studies point out the correlation between all kinds of diseases and poor sleep.

Re: Why Do Hospitals Hate Sleep So Much?

#467

Post by umvi » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 9:14 PM UTC

wyldfire wrote: post #442

umvi wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Elementary school starting so early all the kids are half asleep in class Isn't the amount of sleep you get determined by when you go to sleep? So if elementary school kids need more sleep just... put them to bed earlier?

While I think most elementary school kids probably should be put to bed earlier (even if their school doesn't start so early), it's easier said than done. Imagine having to get home from your commute, feed your family, getting the older siblings to/from extracurriculars and then getting the elementary school ones to bed by 7:00/8:00pm.

Yeah but time is zero sum. Let's pretend school now starts at 9. Now everything is shifted by 2 hours. Extracurriculars are now 2 hours later, feeding your family is now 2 hours later, etc.

"Imagine having to get home from your commute, feed your family, getting the older siblings to/from extracurriculars and then getting the elementary school ones to bed by 9:00/10:00pm. It's easier said than done! School needs to start at 11!"

I must be missing something. How is your family life going to be less hectic after work with school being 2 hours later?

Re: Why Do Hospitals Hate Sleep So Much?

#468

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 9:19 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #467

wyldfire wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I think most elementary school kids probably should be put to bed earlier (even if their school doesn't start so early), it's easier said than done. Imagine having to get home from your commute, feed your family, getting the older siblings to/from extracurriculars and then getting the elementary school ones to bed by 7:00/8:00pm.

Yeah but time is zero sum. Let's pretend school now starts at 9. Now everything is shifted by 2 hours. Extracurriculars are now 2 hours later, feeding your family is now 2 hours later, etc. "Imagine having to get home from your commute, feed your family, getting the older siblings to/from extracurriculars and then getting the elementary school ones to bed by 9:00/10:00pm. It's easier said than done! School needs to s…

> Let's pretend school now starts at 9. Now everything is shifted by 2 hours.

(1) The school day is too long and the school year too short, anyway, so chopping two hours off the end of the day and making it up by extending the school year would be a win.

(2) Even if you don't do that, eliminating the end-of-school to end-of-typical-fulltime-work gap would be a different win.

Re: Why Do Hospitals Hate Sleep So Much?

#469

Post by MichaelDickens » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 9:22 PM UTC

andybak wrote: post #391

shados wrote: post #228

I'll push this one step further: why is our entire society built around the idea that sleep literally doesn't matter? - Elementary school starting so early all the kids are half asleep in class. - College + Sleep? Not gonna happen. - 24 hour construction in certain part of NYC, check! - Most cities quiet hours are very precisely 8 hours. Hope your days start at 6:30/7:00 and you're falling asleep precisely at 11pm, a…

My theory is that there is an eternal secret war between morning people and evening people and the morning people are winning. Resistance must be done in secret but fight back in every way you can.

I think sleep is losing the war against staying awake, both in the morning and the evening. As a morning person, I often have a hard time participating in social activities when I'm trying to get to sleep by 9-10pm.

Re: Why Do Hospitals Hate Sleep So Much?

#470

Post by sahin-boydas » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 9:40 PM UTC

shados wrote: post #228

I'll push this one step further: why is our entire society built around the idea that sleep literally doesn't matter? - Elementary school starting so early all the kids are half asleep in class. - College + Sleep? Not gonna happen. - 24 hour construction in certain part of NYC, check! - Most cities quiet hours are very precisely 8 hours. Hope your days start at 6:30/7:00 and you're falling asleep precisely at 11pm, a…

what a good summary. so true.