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Google's cross-platform Flutter UI toolkit goes 1.0

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Re: Google's cross-platform Flutter UI toolkit goes 1.0

#301

Post by oblio »

npunt wrote: post #286
kangoo1707 wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Website (+responsive mobile sites) have been using custom UIs for years and no one bats an eye A framework for mobile uses custom UIs and everyone loses their minds?

1. People regularly complain about inconsistent web UI. 2. Even web apps often have similar idioms and patterns to their UI that they've settled on. It's their own patterns that are different from desktop OS, it's basically another category. 3. Most web apps are used on desktop, not mobile. On mobile, it's mostly native apps that are used. So they're not substitutes.

Many "native apps" are just "hidden" web apps, users just don't know it.

Re: Google's cross-platform Flutter UI toolkit goes 1.0

#302

Post by oblio »

npunt wrote: post #288
coldtea wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They do care. Try writing a DOS or Blackberry-style app today and see what happens. Nothing much. Some of the most downloaded and bought apps (desktop and mobile) have horrible custom UIs. As long as the app has the crucial functionality, few care. And I'm talking for average users. As for pros? Well, vim and Emacs are DOS style apps (well, in that they use curses and totally un-native GUI paradigms), and they're s…

Sure but lets not forget the single most successful consumer product in history (iPhone) owes much of its success to it's clean, consistent UX across a suite of built-in apps. More people probably use those than downloaded apps.

Yet the most popular OS is Android...

Re: Google's cross-platform Flutter UI toolkit goes 1.0

#303

Post by kkarakk »

leeman2016 wrote: post #282
shrewduser wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Typescript isn't JavaScript

In fact, one of the best thing about typescript is that you can bring in almost everything you know about javascript into the game. It took me few days to pick it up when moving from JS to typescript. I don't get it when people say it is complex or adds complexity.

> I don't get it when people say it is complex or adds complexity.

js is the complexity people are worried about. the number 1 reason i'm considering going to flutter over react is having to learn js

Re: Google's cross-platform Flutter UI toolkit goes 1.0

#304

Post by maccard »

oblio wrote: post #301
npunt wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. People regularly complain about inconsistent web UI. 2. Even web apps often have similar idioms and patterns to their UI that they've settled on. It's their own patterns that are different from desktop OS, it's basically another category. 3. Most web apps are used on desktop, not mobile. On mobile, it's mostly native apps that are used. So they're not substitutes.

Many "native apps" are just "hidden" web apps, users just don't know it.

Such as?

Re: Google's cross-platform Flutter UI toolkit goes 1.0

#305

Post by amelius »

saagarjha wrote: post #195
amelius wrote: post #185

It's sad that this thought had to cross my mind, but how long until Apple prohibits or penalizes the use of this toolkit?

Why would they? I don't see any guidelines it violates, other than the loose suggestion to have your app be reasonably designed.

> Why would they?

For reasons of business strategy. With this toolkit, the AppStore might lose its exclusivity on a lot of apps.

Exactly what Google wants, and Apple does not want.

Re: Google's cross-platform Flutter UI toolkit goes 1.0

#306

Post by kristoffer »

pjmlp wrote: post #296
kristoffer wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reasonable? It's about $500 / month / developer with additional royalties if you are shipping devices with Qt firmware. Sure I think Qt/QML is the best UI toolkit available but this crazy pricing is driving me towards any possible alternative. So I'm really hoping Flutter will take off (for desktop/embedded as well, not only mobile). Note that Qt is GPL3 nowadays so you can't really ship embedded devices with Qt with…

A great toolkit like Qt, including Qt Creator and UI designers, doesn't get written during late nights and weekends. They are pretty cheap considering the typical prices on their target markets, embedded tooling, medical devices, enterprise solutions. Naturally they decided to pivot to those markets, as Trolltech has hardly seen any significant monetary profit from FOSS. So it is only fair that those that don't want…

Most embedded tooling is free nowadays. Free software has eaten the world and will continue to do so.

I will use a free UI toolkit when I can. Qt will kill itself with their current pricing model.

Automotive is moving towards Android. Qt is not good for medical either because it is not really certifiable.

Re: Google's cross-platform Flutter UI toolkit goes 1.0

#307

Post by oblio »

hardwaresofton wrote: post #266
Androider wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fuchsia is to Google as Tizen is to Samsung... something keep in the back pocket for a worst-case legal total war, but unlikely to see any real world use.

Really? but Fuchsia isn't just a mobile operating system -- I think they want to own all the software at almost every level. I wouldn't be surprised if they started running their own hardware and laptops with Fuchsia as well if it was good enough. It's a bit cynical but I think they might even want to just bin linux as a base for Android and migrate off of it completely, get their notebooks/chromebooks on Fuchsia, an…

> I think they want to own all the software at almost every level

That's what everyone wants to do. Guess what, Google might be big, but Android is big because Google has many partners.

If they try to pull that off, all their partners will drop them like a hot potato.

And I agree with you it's probably to ditch Linux cause Linux has too much political baggage, i.e. they want to fully control Fuchsia.

For us, it's probably better if Fuchsia fails.

Re: Google's cross-platform Flutter UI toolkit goes 1.0

#308

Post by pjmlp »

kristoffer wrote: post #306
pjmlp wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A great toolkit like Qt, including Qt Creator and UI designers, doesn't get written during late nights and weekends. They are pretty cheap considering the typical prices on their target markets, embedded tooling, medical devices, enterprise solutions. Naturally they decided to pivot to those markets, as Trolltech has hardly seen any significant monetary profit from FOSS. So it is only fair that those that don't want…

Most embedded tooling is free nowadays. Free software has eaten the world and will continue to do so. I will use a free UI toolkit when I can. Qt will kill itself with their current pricing model. Automotive is moving towards Android. Qt is not good for medical either because it is not really certifiable.

Actually what I predict is the return to shareware/public domain models, where the free software is only the tip of the iceberg of the stack one actually needs for production code.

The trend is already visible with SaaS, Cloud, IoT,...

Qt is certainly certified for medical use, https://www.qt.io/qt-in-medical/.

I have hardly seen any big Android Auto adoption.

The biggest foe of Qt in Automotive is Web stack.

Re: Google's cross-platform Flutter UI toolkit goes 1.0

#309

Post by pjmlp »

1024core wrote: post #250
stickfigure wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tcl/Tk is 30 years old. I would be willing to bet my retirement that none of the now-popular presentation technologies will be mainstream 30 years from now. They just don't have that kind of shelf life. If Flutter lasts a decade, it will have lived gloriously. React should be so lucky.

> I would be willing to bet my retirement that none of the now-popular presentation technologies will be mainstream 30 years from now X-Windows? That thing started life more than 30 years ago, and still going strong on Linux.

More due to inertia and inability to get Wayland ready than anything else.

Re: Google's cross-platform Flutter UI toolkit goes 1.0

#310

Post by nottorp »

pjmlp wrote: post #296
kristoffer wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reasonable? It's about $500 / month / developer with additional royalties if you are shipping devices with Qt firmware. Sure I think Qt/QML is the best UI toolkit available but this crazy pricing is driving me towards any possible alternative. So I'm really hoping Flutter will take off (for desktop/embedded as well, not only mobile). Note that Qt is GPL3 nowadays so you can't really ship embedded devices with Qt with…

A great toolkit like Qt, including Qt Creator and UI designers, doesn't get written during late nights and weekends. They are pretty cheap considering the typical prices on their target markets, embedded tooling, medical devices, enterprise solutions. Naturally they decided to pivot to those markets, as Trolltech has hardly seen any significant monetary profit from FOSS. So it is only fair that those that don't want…

Actually Trolltech was doing pretty well while selling Qt (which was full GPL at that time) for a fixed price per major version.

Then Nokia bought it and made it LGPL because they were planning on using it as the foundation for (some of) their mobile phones. Unfortunately, they couldn't decide which phones and went on a downwards slide.

Then Microsoft bought most of Nokia, and Qt got spun off into an enterprise thingy that takes their sales tactics from Oracle. Yes, I know the LGPL allows me to link dynamically for free, no, I don't trust Digia not to sue me for that.

Their pricing is also out of reach of anyone who's not in an industry that charges an arm and a leg due to regulation or niche.

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