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Google's cross-platform Flutter UI toolkit goes 1.0

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Re: Google's cross-platform Flutter UI toolkit goes 1.0

#251
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - They inevitably don’t look or work like native apps in ways both big and small, frustrating and annoying users. We're way past that in the mobile world, where both Google, Facebook, and other top dogs use non-native cross platform frameworks and looks (e.g. Material UI).

Agreed - I never could quite understand that argument and what is so intuitive and familiar with native UI controls when looking from perspective of a new app to the user. Depending on the app functionality, achieving good UX could be very hard and sub-optimal using only native controls, and impact of a well-thougth-out flow through the app, specialized controls where helpful and polished design should not be underes…

> I never could quite understand that argument and what is so intuitive and familiar with native UI controls when looking from perspective of a new app to the user

Consider the humble popup button. A user may open the menu via touch, or with a mouse click, or tab to it and open it with spacebar, or via accessibility support, or via scripting support. Once the menu is open, the user may choose to select an item via touch, or trackpad, or key equivalent, or arrow keys and return, or accessibility, or scripting...

When the control is obviously normal, all of these interaction modes are available. If it's something custom, then probably only a few work and I don't want to subject myself to the frustrations of figuring out which one.

Native UI controls allow the user to exercise their built-up vocabulary.

> I'd say that, if someone puts enough attention into it, custom design / controls are probably mostly superior to the native UI, in terms of UX.

Broadly false, but true in highly specialized apps where the investment in custom flows is worth it. (vim, Photoshop, etc). If you're building one of these apps, by all means, think deeply about a specialized interaction vocabulary. But if your app isn't designed to be absolutely central to a specialized workflow, PLEASE leverage the ecosystem and use the native stuff.

> Not to mention how often people want something different and fancy over "boring" bland look of native controls

This doesn't actually happen.

Re: Google's cross-platform Flutter UI toolkit goes 1.0

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's one thing to draw some widgets. That's the "easy" problem (to borrow some AI jargon). It's totally another thing to specify how these widgets read and write the model in which the business logic is encoded. If you want to animate transitions between valid model states, it all gets ten times as complicated. And then when you try to make it performant by eliminating redundant redraws, it becomes an even bigger mes…

Thanks for your reply - it was a pretty insightful rebuttal. Do you think in the future it might be possible for say Flutter to: 1. Refactor flutter into a layout engine and gui widgets 2. Provide the layout engine as an interface on all desktop OSes. Something like a standardized syscall like interface. 3. Anyone can implement a new GUI toolkit to this layout engine interface. 4. For desktop OSes, the number of styl…

I like the sound of orthogonal components.

Re: Google's cross-platform Flutter UI toolkit goes 1.0

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try to download it from qt.io. You will have to go through several screens saying "Are you sure you are able to comply with the LGPL? Wouldn't you rather get the commercial version for peace of mind?". If that isn't an implied threat, i don't know what is.

I don't approve of that tactic (in fact it drives me nuts), but I will say, Qt's license fees are quite reasonable, and then you get to link statically with no risk of violating the GPL.

Reasonable? It's about $500 / month / developer with additional royalties if you are shipping devices with Qt firmware. Sure I think Qt/QML is the best UI toolkit available but this crazy pricing is driving me towards any possible alternative. So I'm really hoping Flutter will take off (for desktop/embedded as well, not only mobile).

Note that Qt is GPL3 nowadays so you can't really ship embedded devices with Qt without paying.

Re: Google's cross-platform Flutter UI toolkit goes 1.0

#254

I don't understand why we have to keep reinventing GUI toolkits and layout engines over and over again. Why can't this domain be smarter like Compiler world and build pluggable components? So something like, a react-engine that renders the recently changed display node. The react-engine is offered as an API/library layer, it could be run in browser where it works with DOM, it could be run in a desktop where it works…

So you're asking all the OS vendors to get together and implement a universal UI toolkit? Good luck with that.

It's hard to get a single OS vendor to implement a universal UI toolkit on their own OS. Thankfully, Apple standardized around Cocoa/ObjC. Microsoft keeps proliferating new, incompatible ways to approach application development. Linux has multiple incompatible toolkits pretty much by design.

Re: Google's cross-platform Flutter UI toolkit goes 1.0

#255

Like I said yesterday "The road block for adoption will be Dart. Why they didn't just choose Typescript or go with native javascript is beyond me. No one uses Dart. It was probably the poorest design decision they could make." The comment from pzo points out an even worst of an adoption showstopper.

[deleted]

Re: Google's cross-platform Flutter UI toolkit goes 1.0

#257
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, such things are causing subtle annoyance for users. This works as long as the value you provide is good, but the more and app is just a bad we view the more likely it becomes that people uninstall it or look for alternatives. Unsurprising consistent behavior is a value.

> Unsurprising consistent behavior is a value. Looking at the last 30 years of software development, it's pretty clear that users don't care very much.

They do care. Try writing a DOS or Blackberry-style app today and see what happens. Software today has internalized the idioms so much that its developers don't even realize it.

"My app is a snowflake and needs a custom design language and UI." You're vim or Photoshop or AutoCAD or Excel: you're targeting dedicated users who are prepared to invest in learning a specialized UI. Fair enough.

But if you're not one of these highly professional apps, then custom control just makes the app less predictable, harder to use, and often inaccessible for users with disabilities. Not good.

Re: Google's cross-platform Flutter UI toolkit goes 1.0

#259

I have been a freelance Android Dev for past 4 or 5 years. I have recently built out a flutter app for a client. And honestly I am now looking for more Flutter work. UI development in Android is such a pain and I feel like I spend most of my time trying to get the UI just right. With Flutter I am building UI so much faster and getting to focus on the actual logic of the code. Dart was fine, I learned it as I went. I…

Can I ask was the UI quite simple?
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