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China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

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Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#321

Post by agsdfgsd »

bluGill wrote: post #183
agsdfgsd wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are a few overhead wires actually more expensive than the massive batteries electric buses require? They are certainly less damaging to the environment.

Wires are expensive and not environmentally friendly to make ether. Remember we are talking about kms/miles of wires, not the few meters/feet in a house.

>Wires are expensive

Relative to what they used to cost, sure. Relative to batteries they are quite cheap. It takes a lot of batteries to move a bus, and they have to be replaced every few years because they are charged and discharged multiple times per day.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#322

Post by agsdfgsd »

Reason077 wrote: post #168
agsdfgsd wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are a few overhead wires actually more expensive than the massive batteries electric buses require? They are certainly less damaging to the environment.

If building a new network from scratch or replacing diesel, then yes, there is no doubt that battery electrics are cheaper. Also, batteries are charged overnight, allowing cheap off-peak energy to be used. The argument about batteries being damaging to the environment mostly relates to cobalt mining. However, buses typically use iron-phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries which contain no cobalt.

>If building a new network from scratch

How so? You're talking about literal tons of batteries, and the charging stations for them. And you have to replace those batteries every decade because their useful lifespan is less than 20,000 cycles.

>or replacing diesel

Sure, if you are just replacing a couple of buses it would make sense.

>Also, batteries are charged overnight, allowing cheap off-peak energy to be used

Batteries have to be charged multiple times per day. It isn't feasible for a bus to carry around an entire day of energy in batteries, the extra weight uses more extra energy than is worthwhile. And lots of places don't have cheap off-peak electricity, they have a single rate.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#323

Post by agsdfgsd »

moltar wrote: post #310
Reason077 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If building a new network from scratch or replacing diesel, then yes, there is no doubt that battery electrics are cheaper. Also, batteries are charged overnight, allowing cheap off-peak energy to be used. The argument about batteries being damaging to the environment mostly relates to cobalt mining. However, buses typically use iron-phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries which contain no cobalt.

And coincidently, here’s an article from today: https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/success-of-montr...

An article that lambasts the project because it was insanely expensive and sucks. $1.2M buses with a range of 37km. They charge those batteries so often they will need replaced frequenty. A charging station is $800k. For an 11km route. The cost for an overhead wire installation for 11km is roughly that same price, and it would save all the battery costs for the 7 buses that will eventually use it.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#324

Post by rohit2412 »

mikeash wrote: post #261
rohit2412 wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Win compared to old models of gasoline and deisel? probably yes. Win compared to more efficient modern versions, I'm not sure. Win compared to hybrids? No way.

I don't think so. The added impact of battery manufacturing is quite small compared to the impact of manufacturing any vehicle, and that in turn is a fairly small proportion of the total impact of a vehicle over its lifetime. Only looking at driving, a Prius emits about 238 grams of CO2 per mile. A reasonably efficient EV charging from the US's current generation mix emits about 150 grams/mile. If we assume they'll l…

I'm not sure why this guy doing a state by state breakdown comes to a different conclusion than you have.

https://youtu.be/6RhtiPefVzM

I can find you more sources that say the same thing he does.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#325

Post by Reason077 »

agsdfgsd wrote: post #322
Reason077 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If building a new network from scratch or replacing diesel, then yes, there is no doubt that battery electrics are cheaper. Also, batteries are charged overnight, allowing cheap off-peak energy to be used. The argument about batteries being damaging to the environment mostly relates to cobalt mining. However, buses typically use iron-phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries which contain no cobalt.

>If building a new network from scratch How so? You're talking about literal tons of batteries, and the charging stations for them. And you have to replace those batteries every decade because their useful lifespan is less than 20,000 cycles. >or replacing diesel Sure, if you are just replacing a couple of buses it would make sense. >Also, batteries are charged overnight, allowing cheap off-peak energy to be used Bat…

"You're talking about literal tons of batteries, and the charging stations for them. And you have to replace those batteries every decade because their useful lifespan is less than 20,000 cycles."

If the lifespan of the batteries is 20,000 cycles, then they would last 54 years with daily cycling! In reality, the cycle life is probably less than that, but is still sufficient to ensure many years of daily service.

Diesel buses do not usually last much more than 10 years in daily service anyway.

"Batteries have to be charged multiple times per day. It isn't feasible for a bus to carry around an entire day of energy in batteries"

That is incorrect. The range of a battery electric bus is hundreds of miles, more than enough for a full day's duty in most cities.

London, for example, has several hundred battery electric busses, including double-deckers, many of which have been in daily service for several years now. These have been very successful and there are hundreds more on order.

Their strategy is to install chargers in the depots where the busses are parked overnight. There is currently no facility for charging on-route or topping up during the day.

I expect that at some point in the next 1-2 years, London will commit to purchasing only zero-emission busses with the goal of an all-electric fleet by 2030 or so.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#326

Post by mikeash »

rohit2412 wrote: post #324
mikeash wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so. The added impact of battery manufacturing is quite small compared to the impact of manufacturing any vehicle, and that in turn is a fairly small proportion of the total impact of a vehicle over its lifetime. Only looking at driving, a Prius emits about 238 grams of CO2 per mile. A reasonably efficient EV charging from the US's current generation mix emits about 150 grams/mile. If we assume they'll l…

I'm not sure why this guy doing a state by state breakdown comes to a different conclusion than you have. https://youtu.be/6RhtiPefVzM I can find you more sources that say the same thing he does.

Do you have something that’s not a video? They’re very time consuming, and in my experience the odds are small that a video used as a source in an online discussion is actually worth a damn.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#327

Post by sangnoir »

Green_man wrote: post #285
sangnoir wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A top level commenter mentioned Geely-owned London Taxi Company is building electrified black cabs. Geely also happens to own Volvo: I think an electric Volvo will do very well in the high-end against Tesla. Also, if China decides it needs extra EV battery capacity, expect the total number to significantly increase, and Tesla's slice will shrink (in relative terms).

Volvo's ex-performance brand, polestar, is being spun off into a hybrid and electric only manufacturer. They are starting off with the Polestar 1, a hybrid sports coupe, but after that, the polestar 2 and polestar 3 are planned to be electric (sedan and suv, respectively). Polestar 1 will be out of reach for most ($150k), as well as being in a coupe form factor. its competitors will likely be honda NSX, and maybe DB1…

Car technology always filters down from high-end models to daily drivers over time - today the tech will be in Polestar, in 5 years, it will be in Volvo's generic platform covering several models. Even Tesla kicked things off with the expensive roadster and the tech filtered to cheaper cars, and this follows a long tradition (power steering, airbags, traction control, cruise control were all premium models features at some point but are now standard)

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#328

Post by on_and_off »

sumedh wrote: post #320
on_and_off wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we going to still have branded charging stations going forward ? It sounds a bit insane to have stations where you can get fuel for a mercedes but not a kia.

Agree but to be fair it was Tesla who actually made electric cars popular and desirable and built all the charging stations for their cars so it does not make sense for them to give services to other electric cars unless some law forces them to do so.

It will probably necessitate a legislation for this but once electric cars become dominant it looks like having battery standards will be necessary.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#329

Post by agsdfgsd »

Reason077 wrote: post #325
agsdfgsd wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If building a new network from scratch How so? You're talking about literal tons of batteries, and the charging stations for them. And you have to replace those batteries every decade because their useful lifespan is less than 20,000 cycles. >or replacing diesel Sure, if you are just replacing a couple of buses it would make sense. >Also, batteries are charged overnight, allowing cheap off-peak energy to be used Bat…

"You're talking about literal tons of batteries, and the charging stations for them. And you have to replace those batteries every decade because their useful lifespan is less than 20,000 cycles." If the lifespan of the batteries is 20,000 cycles, then they would last 54 years with daily cycling! In reality, the cycle life is probably less than that, but is still sufficient to ensure many years of daily service. Dies…

>If the lifespan of the batteries is 20,000 cycles

It is less than, as I said.

>then they would last 54 years with daily cycling!

Which isn't the case unless they are buying 10 times the batteries and swapping them all day. They can't run all day on a single charge.

>Diesel buses do not usually last much more than 10 years in daily service anyway.

What? There's tons of Diesel buses that are decades old and in use. And what on earth do diesel buses have to do with anything? We're comparing batteries vs wires.

>That is incorrect

https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/success-of-montr...

>The range of a battery electric bus is hundreds of miles

Not any of the ones anyone has. And those buses are burning diesel to heat the bus in the winter, which would not be needed using a tram bus.

>I expect that at some point in the next 1-2 years, London will commit to purchasing only zero-emission busses with the goal of an all-electric fleet by 2030 or so.

What does that have to do with anything? Electric buses are "zero emission" (move the emission somewhere else) regardless of batteries vs power lines.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#330

Post by mschuster91 »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #174
mschuster91 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just see the "Yellow Vests" riots in France because of the tax raise on fuel. Problem with the French protests is that the fuel tax raise didn't take care of poor-ish people. Most "eco" politics doesn't care about these people either - no matter the country - and that's the reason why Trump and other right-wingers can hate so successfully against anything environmentally-friendly.

The problem is that getting off of fossil fuels (or solving pretty much any other large politically charged problem) will cost a lot of money and in society it's always the people who have the least power and influence who are left with the bill so until the middle and upper classes can figure out how to stop screwing poor people at every turn there will always be opportunity for populist leaders to gain power by pro…

> It's not a left vs right thing.

It very much is. Take a look at ANY right-wing political party and look who gets screwed over: always the lowest class people first. Women, PoC, migrants, poor persons.

The right-wing strategy is to distract the masses with "it's the fault of the foreigners/the Muslims/Deep State/Swamp" while at the same time enacting policies that benefit only the ultra rich.

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