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China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

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291–300 of 347 posts

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#291
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That type of taxation of externalities is really a no-brainer in the West too, but there’s just not democratic majority for implementing it. A tragedy. Tragedy of the commons, really, on a spectacular scale. A general CO2 tax wouldn’t be hard to implement if we were a dictatorship.

Taxes are hard to implement in many countries, including the USA, because people have seen that the tax money is not spent on what proponents say it will be spent on. You'd have a hard time getting a CO2 tax passed because it would just end up going into the general fund and get spent on pet projects, not on anything that really addressed CO2 emissions, or helped with the cost of alternative fuels or vehicles.

A carbon tax is a pigovian tax, which works purely to internalise negative externalities into the price of the good. Any purported bonus that could be achieved by directing that money, somehow, is just that: a bonus. It would still work without it.

A carbon tax would work if you burned the money. Bonus points if you captured the CO2 from the fire :)

A carbon tax serves to connect our intuition to our logic. We logically know that, somehow, the sum of all our disparate little actions is responsible for global warming. But the feedback loop is notoriously long, and complex. And humans are no-to-ri-ous-ly bad at properly valuing that. We couldn't do it to save our lives, or that of our species.

Furthermore, it helps break free from the tragedy of the commons, where every independent agent makes a game theoretically optimal move, to the detriment of the global system. No amount of proselytising or appealing to humane sensibilities, no amount of ecological lucidity or sudden flashes of intuitive insight into that awful feedback loop, would ever solve that problem.

No weapon works better against overfishing than quotas. Not necessarily a tax, but leveraging the market similarly.

No weapon works better against carbon emissions than a carbon tax.

Pigovian taxes are powerful weapons in a market oriented society. Very, very powerful. This is why vested interests will do absolutely anything to prevent them.

Doing something useful with the money is just a tiny cherry on top of large cake of success.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#292
post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The smartphone parallel is what I was thinking of. More particularly the transition from dumb phone, to smart phone, Tha basically destroyed most of the incumbents. I take it you're saying Tesla is Apple. Perhaps, you don't have the network effects and lock in with cars, that you do with phones, and Tesla don't seem to make 'the best' hardware like Apple do, but I don't have a crystal ball either, so I won't argue.

> you don't have the network effects and lock in with cars Maybe charging stations is the network effect, Tesla has lot stations across the US so you know you wont run out of juice on your trip.

Are we going to still have branded charging stations going forward ?

It sounds a bit insane to have stations where you can get fuel for a mercedes but not a kia.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#293

I've heard that the environmental impact of building the vehicles (the batteries in particular) and charging them outweighs the savings in emissions. Basically batteries use lots of toxic chemicals and require LOTS of energy during manufacture. Also isn't most electricity generation in China still based on burning coal? Have any experts done any analysis to see what environmental benefit this brings, if any?

Pretty sure that's FUD spread by parties interested in seeing ICE cars hold on a bit longer.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is easy. Diesel buses were more cost effective than electric trolleys, which is why they replaced all the trolleys with diesel buses. Electric (battery) buses are expected to be more cost effective than the diesel buses they’re replacing. Thanks to the transitive property of inequality, we would expect electric buses to be more cost effective than electric trolleys.

If the cost of everything has stayed the same for the last century, that's correct. In real life, however, the economics have changed; a number of cities are actually bringing back tram lines and/or trambuses. This is partially because (tracked) tram lines can support far greater line capacity than buses, though.

Mixed overhead and battery usage seems to be a very wise idea. The flexibility of a bus and the cheap charging of a trolley.

In general a lot of this has to do with the infrastructure of your city, and the local costs of retrofitting streets to include overhead wires.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#295
post #6

Just came back from Shenzen, seemed like most of the taxis were electric. You can tell because they're blue vs the red gas taxis. Another ingenious thing they do is there's an added fee to ride red taxis, so people avoid them like they're plague-ridden when they have other options. I thought that was a brilliant use of taxing externalities, you let customers decide whether paying the fee is worth it.

It works in china because CCP thinks, "if it's better for business/control/money/people, we'll do it, doesn't matter if some of us loses in this" Basically, if you are in goverment and you've stock holding in Gas cars, and they are lobbying, gas cars stay. But in China, CCP will simply acquire controlling interest in new winning EV firm if it's better from the perspective of power/money/control over an industry, so t…

> EVs = No need of importing Oil

I've been harping continuously on this for several years. Countries grudging accept importing oil and the geopolitical strings that come with that because they have no choice. But electrified transportation gives them a choice.

That's an argument against framing this debate based on the preferences of US political leaders, oil companies and guys who sees his pickup truck as an extension of his identity[1]. World wide picture those guys opinion and power is unimportant.

[1] I also think you put a guy like that in an electric pickup that can smoke the tires and he'll never go back.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxes are hard to implement in many countries, including the USA, because people have seen that the tax money is not spent on what proponents say it will be spent on. You'd have a hard time getting a CO2 tax passed because it would just end up going into the general fund and get spent on pet projects, not on anything that really addressed CO2 emissions, or helped with the cost of alternative fuels or vehicles.

A carbon tax is a pigovian tax, which works purely to internalise negative externalities into the price of the good. Any purported bonus that could be achieved by directing that money, somehow, is just that: a bonus. It would still work without it. A carbon tax would work if you burned the money. Bonus points if you captured the CO2 from the fire :) A carbon tax serves to connect our intuition to our logic. We logica…

> A carbon tax would work if you burned the money.

This is very under appreciated. A lot of potential taxes aren't actually collected because people alter behavior to avoid them. For a carbon tax that's the point.

I'll also say the behavior you want to alter is not 'buying carbon based fuels'. The behavior you want to stop is people buying gasoline powered cars and natural gas fired furnaces. Which means what you want is a excise tax on those things not the fuel itself. Because when someone buys a gas powered car they commit then and there to emit 100 tons of CO2. So make the pain point then and there, not in the nebulous future.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#297
post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to throw something out there. My city here in Ontario Canada has been running BYD buses for a while. We have been very happy with BYD buses. These buses are clean and don't emit the black smoke. We have had very positive experiences.

And why would people downvote this comment? Agree or disagree, but downvoting a completely harmless comment like this is just bad for the conversations here.

I did. And I don't mean to violate rules or to be insulting, but it set off my skepticism side. The comment, to me, did not seem to be from someone who writes English as a first language. The account is two days old, and has made only two pro-China comments. I mean no offense to the poster, but I'll remain skeptical for now.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It works in china because CCP thinks, "if it's better for business/control/money/people, we'll do it, doesn't matter if some of us loses in this" Basically, if you are in goverment and you've stock holding in Gas cars, and they are lobbying, gas cars stay. But in China, CCP will simply acquire controlling interest in new winning EV firm if it's better from the perspective of power/money/control over an industry, so t…

> EVs = No need of importing Oil I've been harping continuously on this for several years. Countries grudging accept importing oil and the geopolitical strings that come with that because they have no choice. But electrified transportation gives them a choice. That's an argument against framing this debate based on the preferences of US political leaders, oil companies and guys who sees his pickup truck as an extensi…

w.r.t. the US specifically, the US is poised to become a net exporter of oil in the near future.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, in a weird way it's working in a way that aligns to wider, long-term, individual interests. By making the government the controlling monopoly, China ends up with a form of capitalism where externalities apply to other countries rather than surrounding corporations and citizens. That's kinda interesting compared to how most other capitalist nations are handling their shit right now. You can do 'common good' s…

>On a weird way it's working in a way that aligns to wider, long-term, individual interests. Only so much as the interests of individuals align with those of business and the state. Anything threatens stability (e.g. individual freedoms, business models that allow people to circumvent state authority) is a threat to the state and to business by proxy and is struck down.

Completely agree. My post is by no means a love letter to the CCP. Rather, an observation that in some aspects the marked difference in corporate/government relationships between China and most western nations is producing some synergies between the state and individual interests which we don't see elsewhere.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#300
post #85

Why don't we bring trolleybuses back? They rock! You don't need polluting batteries in order to run them, just some copper to put the wires up, and we've been master of this "technology" for almost a century now. Also, we should extend or re-introduce the tram network.

You do still use (some) batteries for trolley buses, as they have to bridge gaps where the overhead wires are unavailable (roadworks etc).

The overhead wires are the biggest reason to avoid trolley buses. They're expensive to deploy and maintain, a visual eyesore, and constrain the bus network to predefined routes. Electric buses are a great improvement - At the expense of more batteries per bus and deployment of charging stations at depots/terminus, you avoid the wiring hassle entirely and have far more flexibility to change routes as required.

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