Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost • Hacker News Board

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#71

Post by orwin » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 5:35 PM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #2

Personal opinion - the lack of a "innocent until proven guilty" judicial system when it comes to sexual harassment claims is what has caused much of the fear of women. Colleges, businesses, and online communities almost always simply believe the victim, and even if a trial should occur and the accused is vindicated, the accused has already been fired, expelled, or crucified by public opinion. The records of the accus…

My little sister was raped by her boss last year when she was an apprentice[0]. Since she was devastated (and her ex-boyfriend a cunt, pardon my french), she waited 3 day before telling my father, who then took her to the hospital, but it was to late: no evidence we could give the police.

Result, the only thing she could do was filing a report at the police station, and now she have to wait for another girl to get raped and go to the police. I still scream "rapist!" when i pass by his restaurant though, twice this year and will do that too at Christmas, and will continue until i get arrested or until i pardon him. I also gave his picture and contact information to all my highschool friends so they can avoid him, as it's a small city and we are around the same age (luckily i'm no living there anymore). My sister's former cooking school now forbid female student to take apprenticeship there (a bit cynical, but well, better than nothing).

I was all for "innocent until proven guilty", and still am, but maybe because it's still fresh, i really can't condamn public shaming anymore.

[0]I might have the wrong word: she was working on her cooking diploma while working in a restaurant

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#72

Post by throwawaymath » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 5:36 PM UTC

CiPHPerCoder wrote: post #55

throwawaymath wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the difference between cowardice and "rational cowardice"?

Cowardice, defined here as the lack of personal integrity in the face of occupational hazards, can sometimes be rational and sometimes be emotional. Some of the men are demonstrating a rational argument (albeit based on flawed statistics), but they're using it to justify running away from the problem rather than addressing it.

I respect your broader opinion but that's not how I would choose to define cowardice.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#73

Post by happytoexplain » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 5:36 PM UTC

neaden wrote: post #32

cwmma wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boy scouts have been doing this for decades, the rule was you were never to be alone with an adult you weren't related to.

Every organization I've volunteered with that works with minors, including BSA, has that rule. It's sadly necessary.

It's telling that I'm unsure if this line of comments is more concerned with the problem that people abuse other people, or the problem that people falsely accuse other people of abuse.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#74

Post by jbob2000 » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 5:36 PM UTC

> Finally, he landed on the solution: “Just try not to be an asshole.” That’s pretty much the bottom line, said Ron Biscardi, chief executive officer of Context Capital Partners. “It’s really not that hard.”

Tell that to Neil Degrass Tyson! Would you ever consider him an asshole? And yet, here he is getting lambasted for pointing out a tattoo on a woman's arm and telling people he doesn't do hugs.

You literally can be the nicest man in the world and still get #MeToo'd

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#75

Post by snackbugs » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 5:36 PM UTC

phicoh wrote: post #26

falcolas wrote: post #2

Personal opinion - the lack of a "innocent until proven guilty" judicial system when it comes to sexual harassment claims is what has caused much of the fear of women. Colleges, businesses, and online communities almost always simply believe the victim, and even if a trial should occur and the accused is vindicated, the accused has already been fired, expelled, or crucified by public opinion. The records of the accus…

I'm not a lawyer and not playing one here. In any case, it is my understanding that 'innocent until proven guilty' is part of criminal law. In other kinds of law the burden of proof is lower. Of course these claims have to be investigated carefully. But I think it is wrong to try to copy elements of criminal procedures to civil matters. It is important to strike a sensible balance. We cannot have a situation where wo…

Testimony of lived experiences is evidence. It's enough to convict.

When you serve jury duty and the case involves domestic violence, you are explicitly reminded of this because most people will assume it is not.

Still, we end up with cases like Brock Turner where he does get convicted not with the victim's testimony but a mountain of corroborating evidence and national media scrutiny. And then receives what is essentially a non-punishment.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#76

Post by gnicholas » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 5:36 PM UTC

> "If men avoid working or traveling with women alone, or stop mentoring women for fear of being accused of sexual harassment,” he said, “those men are going to back out of a sexual harassment complaint and right into a sex discrimination complaint."

This presents an interesting conundrum, and I wonder how it will complicate the process of proving sex discrimination related to mentoring disparities. Even if laws stay the same, I think some jurors will be more sympathetic to the "Pence approach" in the wake of #MeToo. This will make it harder for plaintiffs to win in mentoring discrimination cases, and will mean lower settlement offers as well.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#77

Post by sk4rekr0w » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 5:37 PM UTC

CiPHPerCoder wrote: post #62

csense wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does that protect you from false accusations?

That's a negligible risk. https://web.archive.org/web/20180101025446/https://icdv.idah...

You can't take an average and apply it to a specific situation.

In this context, if you believe that men are in dramatic positions of power, then you would have to find the # that shows how often powerful men are wrongly accused (vs. just the average man).

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#78

Post by forgottenpass » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 5:37 PM UTC

danesparza wrote: post #5

So as a father of two daughters in their 20's, this makes me sad. Instead of attempting to see women as equals and moving to bridge the gap -- the best solution Wall Street can come up with is to further isolate themselves? Why can't these men just learn to treat women like the humans they are?

>Why can't these men just learn to treat women like the humans they are?

They're not worried they don't know how to treat women with respect. They're worried that in 5, 10 or 15 years they they'll be put on the spot to defend their behavior in an interaction they don't even remember happening.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#79

Post by songshu » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 5:37 PM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #2

Personal opinion - the lack of a "innocent until proven guilty" judicial system when it comes to sexual harassment claims is what has caused much of the fear of women. Colleges, businesses, and online communities almost always simply believe the victim, and even if a trial should occur and the accused is vindicated, the accused has already been fired, expelled, or crucified by public opinion. The records of the accus…

Men are currently taken seriously when they complain about sexual assault and as a man there's no way I would voluntarily give this up. Why would I? What could possibly be in it for me?

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#80

Post by briandear » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 5:38 PM UTC

neaden wrote: post #24

bussierem wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When there have already been numerous well-documented instances of people making false accusations that absolutely RUIN THE LIVES of the defendants, it can hardly be a surprise that people with a lot to lose would take drastic, if ill-though-out, measures to protect themselves from that possibility. As another comment said, even when the false accusations are found to be false, it's usually too late for the defendant…

Hey, can you show me some of these well documented instances? The Duke Lacross case gets brought up a lot, but all those guys were exonerated and as far as I'm aware doing fine. Kavanaugh just got appointed to the Supreme Court and Lois C.K is popping up to do comedy sets, so I'm curious to see these many well documented cases you refer to.

Duke Lacrosse might be “doing fine” now, but while it was happening they certainly weren’t doing fine. Kavanaugh made it to the court, but for the rest of his term, he’s under a cloud. What happened to Kavanaugh was brutal. Just because someone survived the ordeal does lessen the fact that it happened at all.