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Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

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Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#21

Post by falcolas »

ams6110 wrote: post #9
falcolas wrote: post #2

Personal opinion - the lack of a "innocent until proven guilty" judicial system when it comes to sexual harassment claims is what has caused much of the fear of women. Colleges, businesses, and online communities almost always simply believe the victim, and even if a trial should occur and the accused is vindicated, the accused has already been fired, expelled, or crucified by public opinion. The records of the accus…

Really, employers, universities, etc. should not even be involved in these kinds of claims. They are not competent to investigate them. If a crime has been committed, there is a judicial system that can and will deal with that, with established standards regarding presumption of innocence and burden of proof.

To be fair, there are a number of behaviors which create negative environments for men/women/minorities/majorities which are not against the law. I personally have no problems with a company/college having higher standards than "it's against the law" - they simply need to ensure that investigations into those broken standards don't turn into witch hunts.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#23

Post by danesparza »

bussierem wrote: post #12
danesparza wrote: post #5

So as a father of two daughters in their 20's, this makes me sad. Instead of attempting to see women as equals and moving to bridge the gap -- the best solution Wall Street can come up with is to further isolate themselves? Why can't these men just learn to treat women like the humans they are?

When there have already been numerous well-documented instances of people making false accusations that absolutely RUIN THE LIVES of the defendants, it can hardly be a surprise that people with a lot to lose would take drastic, if ill-though-out, measures to protect themselves from that possibility. As another comment said, even when the false accusations are found to be false, it's usually too late for the defendant…

Numerous? Well-documented? I don't mean to be inflammatory -- but I must reading different news that you are. Can you please cite your sources?

To be clear: Numerous (to me) means approaching 20% of all accusations. That's only 1 in every 5 accusations. Does numerous mean something else to you?

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#24

Post by neaden »

bussierem wrote: post #12
danesparza wrote: post #5

So as a father of two daughters in their 20's, this makes me sad. Instead of attempting to see women as equals and moving to bridge the gap -- the best solution Wall Street can come up with is to further isolate themselves? Why can't these men just learn to treat women like the humans they are?

When there have already been numerous well-documented instances of people making false accusations that absolutely RUIN THE LIVES of the defendants, it can hardly be a surprise that people with a lot to lose would take drastic, if ill-though-out, measures to protect themselves from that possibility. As another comment said, even when the false accusations are found to be false, it's usually too late for the defendant…

Hey, can you show me some of these well documented instances? The Duke Lacross case gets brought up a lot, but all those guys were exonerated and as far as I'm aware doing fine. Kavanaugh just got appointed to the Supreme Court and Lois C.K is popping up to do comedy sets, so I'm curious to see these many well documented cases you refer to.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#25

Post by craftyguy »

cwmma wrote: post #18
madengr wrote: post #8

Nothing new. A professor I had 25 years ago would always keep the door open if he had a female student during office hours.

Boy scouts have been doing this for decades, the rule was you were never to be alone with an adult you weren't related to.

Which was also a form of risk management, given their history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_sex_abus...

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#26

Post by phicoh »

falcolas wrote: post #2

Personal opinion - the lack of a "innocent until proven guilty" judicial system when it comes to sexual harassment claims is what has caused much of the fear of women. Colleges, businesses, and online communities almost always simply believe the victim, and even if a trial should occur and the accused is vindicated, the accused has already been fired, expelled, or crucified by public opinion. The records of the accus…

I'm not a lawyer and not playing one here.

In any case, it is my understanding that 'innocent until proven guilty' is part of criminal law. In other kinds of law the burden of proof is lower.

Of course these claims have to be investigated carefully. But I think it is wrong to try to copy elements of criminal procedures to civil matters.

It is important to strike a sensible balance. We cannot have a situation where women would always lose because of lack of hard evidence.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#28

Post by max76 »

falcolas wrote: post #21
ams6110 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really, employers, universities, etc. should not even be involved in these kinds of claims. They are not competent to investigate them. If a crime has been committed, there is a judicial system that can and will deal with that, with established standards regarding presumption of innocence and burden of proof.

To be fair, there are a number of behaviors which create negative environments for men/women/minorities/majorities which are not against the law. I personally have no problems with a company/college having higher standards than "it's against the law" - they simply need to ensure that investigations into those broken standards don't turn into witch hunts.

Also, sexual harassment laws differ from state to state. It would make sense for an organization operating in multiple states to adopt a universal policy for the entire organization.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#29

Post by towelr34dy »

I'd say there are other factors. One big one for me is confounding:

"Sex predator/Abuser" will be the label placed on a guy who violently rapes a woman, just as it will be applied to the guy who said something PERCEIVED to be inappropriate (or who might have had consenting sex with a employee)

My sister the other day refereed to a guy who cat called her as "Violating her integrity".

When there is little distinction in describing: 1- someone saying bad things 2- an act of violently forcing yourself on someone and scarring them for life 3- Inappropriate, but consensual sexual behavior It can be a little worrisome to be accused of saying bad things or of being even perceived as possibly having a relationship with someone.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#30

Post by jklinger410 »

bussierem wrote: post #12
danesparza wrote: post #5

So as a father of two daughters in their 20's, this makes me sad. Instead of attempting to see women as equals and moving to bridge the gap -- the best solution Wall Street can come up with is to further isolate themselves? Why can't these men just learn to treat women like the humans they are?

When there have already been numerous well-documented instances of people making false accusations that absolutely RUIN THE LIVES of the defendants, it can hardly be a surprise that people with a lot to lose would take drastic, if ill-though-out, measures to protect themselves from that possibility. As another comment said, even when the false accusations are found to be false, it's usually too late for the defendant…

"It is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer"
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