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China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

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Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#151

Post by benj111 »

rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #134
benj111 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why 2 years? Batteries last longer than that. Hydrogen has problems, hydrogen embrittlement, its extremely hard to contain. Additionally hydrogen's major strength, that it continues the current fill up at a filling station dynamic* means that it needs to start making gains now, while there are still petrol stations left, to make the switch to hydrogen. Hydrogen may well 'win' but I don't think its an open and shut ca…

>Hydrogen may well 'win' but I don't think its an open and shut case. How? My understanding is that hydrogen is either produced from fossil fuels (aka non-renewable) or from electrolysis but the latter won't be economical for many decades AFAIK. Worst, all things considered, hydrogen cars are still far less efficient that battery EV: https://insideevs.com/efficiency-compared-battery-electric-7...

Petrol is less efficient, but like hydrogen it is more energy dense. And you also have a tank like petrol cars so people don't have to worry about new fangled batteries and running out of electricity.

You seem to be over estimating my support for hydrogen. My next car will more likely be battery powered, and I'd be buying battery, rather than hydrogen shares, but it isn't without merit.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#152

Post by pjc50 »

rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #136
lolive wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From that perspective, there will be a strong need for various rare earth elements. Leading to an insane amount of pollution. Are there any breakthroughs in rare earth extraction & treatment process?

> From that perspective, there will be a strong need for various rare earth elements. Leading to an insane amount of pollution. Are there any breakthroughs in rare earth extraction & treatment process? What rare earth elements are you talking about, exactly? I keep hearing about the scarcity of such "rare" elements, but except lithium (which isn't that rare, it's just we haven't invested in the infrastructure), I'm n…

Yeah, there's a lot of nonspecific scaremongering; I think the bottleneck metal at the moment is cobalt, but Tesla and others are working on that. http://www.mining.com/tesla-delivers-bad-news-cobalt-price/

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#153

Post by morsch »

ThePhysicist wrote: post #146
paganel wrote: post #85

Why don't we bring trolleybuses back? They rock! You don't need polluting batteries in order to run them, just some copper to put the wires up, and we've been master of this "technology" for almost a century now. Also, we should extend or re-introduce the tram network.

Trolleybuses still require infrastructure wherever they run, hence in many cities in Europe they got replaced by trams as they seem to be more efficient (because they're much longer than a bus). In Berlin there are already electric buses in operation on several lines (manufactured by Solaris, a Polish company and EVO bus, a Mercedes Benz subsidiary) and they will start experimenting with inductive charging soon. The…

Inductive charging is only 90% efficient at best. Doesn't really matter for portable devices with their tiny batteries, but it seems wasteful for vehicles.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#154

Post by moduspol »

marvin wrote: post #17
chillacy wrote: post #6

Just came back from Shenzen, seemed like most of the taxis were electric. You can tell because they're blue vs the red gas taxis. Another ingenious thing they do is there's an added fee to ride red taxis, so people avoid them like they're plague-ridden when they have other options. I thought that was a brilliant use of taxing externalities, you let customers decide whether paying the fee is worth it.

That type of taxation of externalities is really a no-brainer in the West too, but there’s just not democratic majority for implementing it. A tragedy. Tragedy of the commons, really, on a spectacular scale. A general CO2 tax wouldn’t be hard to implement if we were a dictatorship.

Why stop at a CO2 tax? All kinds of problems could be solved with a dictatorship.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#155

Post by seanmcdirmid »

paganel wrote: post #85

Why don't we bring trolleybuses back? They rock! You don't need polluting batteries in order to run them, just some copper to put the wires up, and we've been master of this "technology" for almost a century now. Also, we should extend or re-introduce the tram network.

Seattle still has trolley buses, but has been getting rid of them as NG and EV buses are more flexible. Getting off track with overhead lines is annoying, and they got rid of bus overhead lines in the downtown tunnel when light rail went in (electric being previously necessary for ventilation).

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#156

Post by Xylakant »

D_Alex wrote: post #138
paganel wrote: post #85

Why don't we bring trolleybuses back? They rock! You don't need polluting batteries in order to run them, just some copper to put the wires up, and we've been master of this "technology" for almost a century now. Also, we should extend or re-introduce the tram network.

Simply because electric buses are the superior technology right now. Metro bus services is actually an ideal application for electric vehicles: The needed range is short, charging facilities can be in one place (depot), stop-start driving suits the propulsion system, and low noise and no emissions are a bonus in the highly populated areas.

Trolleybusses are electric, they just get their electricity from overhead wires, similar to a railway. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybus

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#157

Post by ollie87 »

Xylakant wrote: post #156
D_Alex wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simply because electric buses are the superior technology right now. Metro bus services is actually an ideal application for electric vehicles: The needed range is short, charging facilities can be in one place (depot), stop-start driving suits the propulsion system, and low noise and no emissions are a bonus in the highly populated areas.

Trolleybusses are electric, they just get their electricity from overhead wires, similar to a railway. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybus

They are but they need more infrastructure than battery vehicles.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#158

Post by seanmcdirmid »

pferde wrote: post #133
iguy wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do the hybrid ones have any clever way to re-connect? All the busses I've seen have this system where the driver has to walk to the back and pull on some rubber bands to put the tentacles back on the wires. If this could be automated, then perhaps you could omit wires at big junctions where it's most messy, needs lots of points, etc. Building & maintaining wires with 90% coverage might cost half as much as 100% cover…

Yes, where the hybrid buses connect to the wires (usually at certain bus stops), the wires have sort of "tentacle catchers" on them, shaped as upside-down Vs. The driver just has to stop on the usual spot, press a button, and while passengers are boarding and exiting, the "tentacles" unfurl, and are guided by these "catchers" towards wires. The driver just watches for a light to go on on his dashboard. It works prett…

Seattle has this before for their downtown bus tunnel. Always annoying when the unfurling went wrong, but it was very workable. They got rid of it when light rail went in, and now run clean low emission buses in the tunnel instead (hybrid, natural gas) to avoid ventilation issues.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#159

Post by seanmcdirmid »

Lukas_Skywalker wrote: post #99
paganel wrote: post #85

Why don't we bring trolleybuses back? They rock! You don't need polluting batteries in order to run them, just some copper to put the wires up, and we've been master of this "technology" for almost a century now. Also, we should extend or re-introduce the tram network.

They have been and still are in use in most Swiss cities. They have a backup ICE for emergencies, but mostly run on electricity. Works really well, and makes for a rather silent ride.

US cities with lots of hills still have trolley bus routes (San Francisco, Seattle, even LA has a few routes). Switzerland has them because of the hills as well (eg Lausanne). Electric + rubber has really great torque for climbing hills. Even replacing trolley buses with a tram requires the use of rubber tires instead (eg Laussane’s newer metro).

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#160

Post by davedx »

ThePhysicist wrote: post #146
paganel wrote: post #85

Why don't we bring trolleybuses back? They rock! You don't need polluting batteries in order to run them, just some copper to put the wires up, and we've been master of this "technology" for almost a century now. Also, we should extend or re-introduce the tram network.

Trolleybuses still require infrastructure wherever they run, hence in many cities in Europe they got replaced by trams as they seem to be more efficient (because they're much longer than a bus). In Berlin there are already electric buses in operation on several lines (manufactured by Solaris, a Polish company and EVO bus, a Mercedes Benz subsidiary) and they will start experimenting with inductive charging soon. The…

Yep electric buses running around Schiphol airport area since last year in the Netherlands. They are great!
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