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China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

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Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#61

Post by Tepix »

dmurray wrote: post #58
marvin wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That type of taxation of externalities is really a no-brainer in the West too, but there’s just not democratic majority for implementing it. A tragedy. Tragedy of the commons, really, on a spectacular scale. A general CO2 tax wouldn’t be hard to implement if we were a dictatorship.

Lots of Western countries have heavy tax on gasoline. This passes the cost for the externality on to the taxi owner instead of the customer, but comes to pretty much the same thing.

Yet none (?) have a tax on kerosine. Which is arguably worse for the environment for multiple reasons. Airplanes are a lot less efficient than buses, ships or trains. Also airplanes release their exhausts up in the atmosphere which is worse for global warming.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#62

Post by avar »

rapnie wrote: post #40
davedx wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Netherlands they’ve just reversed subsidies for electric vehicles, increasing bijtelling for them which makes them a lot more expensive for business purchases and leases. It’s a step backwards.

Yes, it is very frustrating. The Dutch are exceptionally good at talking the talk, when it comes to renewable energy transition, having years-long talk about the opportunity to become the best, most innovative player (e.g. in solar), and then not walking the walk. Suddenly stopping subsidies because of 'unprecedented success' is the norm, leaving all businesses who had invested out in the cold. Netherlands is now a l…

Electric vehicles are excempt from the road tax in The Netherlands. E.g. in Nord-Holland you'd pay 1400 EUR/yr just in road tolls for a Tesla Model S (according to my searching around 2,250 kg), but you pay 0 EUR because it's an EV under the current policy.

Over a period of some years this easily adds up to what other countries such as the US have been paying out in EV subsidies, add to that that fossil fuels are much more expensive than say the US and it's a very significant subsidy.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#63

Post by vixen99 »

marvin wrote: post #17
chillacy wrote: post #6

Just came back from Shenzen, seemed like most of the taxis were electric. You can tell because they're blue vs the red gas taxis. Another ingenious thing they do is there's an added fee to ride red taxis, so people avoid them like they're plague-ridden when they have other options. I thought that was a brilliant use of taxing externalities, you let customers decide whether paying the fee is worth it.

That type of taxation of externalities is really a no-brainer in the West too, but there’s just not democratic majority for implementing it. A tragedy. Tragedy of the commons, really, on a spectacular scale. A general CO2 tax wouldn’t be hard to implement if we were a dictatorship.

There seems to be an 'if only' tone to your stating the obvious.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#64

Post by dmurray »

Tepix wrote: post #61
dmurray wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of Western countries have heavy tax on gasoline. This passes the cost for the externality on to the taxi owner instead of the customer, but comes to pretty much the same thing.

Yet none (?) have a tax on kerosine. Which is arguably worse for the environment for multiple reasons. Airplanes are a lot less efficient than buses, ships or trains. Also airplanes release their exhausts up in the atmosphere which is worse for global warming.

There are lots of taxes (and subsidies) on air transport, and no real alternative to fossil fuels for powering planes. Adding a kerosene tax - instead of, say, a "landing tax" or a grant of land to build an airport - would just slosh the money around a bit, it wouldn't create an incentive for people to take electric planes.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#65

Post by bushin »

nordsieck wrote: post #20
molteanu wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uzbekistan does not control the oil supply either.

> Uzbekistan does not control the oil supply either. Uzbekistan does not have ambitions to become a world power.

Tamerlan is going to rise from the dead and conquer the world.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#66

Post by CalRobert »

rapnie wrote: post #40
davedx wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Netherlands they’ve just reversed subsidies for electric vehicles, increasing bijtelling for them which makes them a lot more expensive for business purchases and leases. It’s a step backwards.

Yes, it is very frustrating. The Dutch are exceptionally good at talking the talk, when it comes to renewable energy transition, having years-long talk about the opportunity to become the best, most innovative player (e.g. in solar), and then not walking the walk. Suddenly stopping subsidies because of 'unprecedented success' is the norm, leaving all businesses who had invested out in the cold. Netherlands is now a l…

Given that the thought of the Netherlands conjures images of happy families in bakfiets {and jealousy on my part) I was startled to learn their per capita greenhouse gas emissions are among the worst in the EU.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#67

Post by antaviana »

marvin wrote: post #17
chillacy wrote: post #6

Just came back from Shenzen, seemed like most of the taxis were electric. You can tell because they're blue vs the red gas taxis. Another ingenious thing they do is there's an added fee to ride red taxis, so people avoid them like they're plague-ridden when they have other options. I thought that was a brilliant use of taxing externalities, you let customers decide whether paying the fee is worth it.

That type of taxation of externalities is really a no-brainer in the West too, but there’s just not democratic majority for implementing it. A tragedy. Tragedy of the commons, really, on a spectacular scale. A general CO2 tax wouldn’t be hard to implement if we were a dictatorship.

This. Just see the "Yellow Vests" riots in France because of the tax raise on fuel.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#68

Post by pjc50 »

Tepix wrote: post #61
dmurray wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of Western countries have heavy tax on gasoline. This passes the cost for the externality on to the taxi owner instead of the customer, but comes to pretty much the same thing.

Yet none (?) have a tax on kerosine. Which is arguably worse for the environment for multiple reasons. Airplanes are a lot less efficient than buses, ships or trains. Also airplanes release their exhausts up in the atmosphere which is worse for global warming.

There's a problem in that it's effectively banned by international treaty as part of the ICAO. I believe people are working on changing this but it will be slow going.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#69

Post by sefrost »

yread wrote: post #26
cauldron wrote: post #21

Western media can't see through the veneer, it's true that China has vast amounts of eletric vehicle, but it's due in part to the tax cut and subsidies offered, the vehicles are generally of low quality and little effort put in, some look like ugly plastic toys, no real technology edge across-the-board. Some cars are just cobbled together to claim subsidies or even defraud the government, since the subsidies are kind…

They are used in Europe as well, for example Liverpool has a fleet of BYD electrical buses https://www.masstransitmag.com/home/press-release/12371883/b... And they don't look that bad. > ugly plastic toys You were thinking of Teslas, perhaps? ducks

The bodywork of those buses is built by Alexander Dennis, based in Scotland.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#70

Post by hadrien01 »

yread wrote: post #26
cauldron wrote: post #21

Western media can't see through the veneer, it's true that China has vast amounts of eletric vehicle, but it's due in part to the tax cut and subsidies offered, the vehicles are generally of low quality and little effort put in, some look like ugly plastic toys, no real technology edge across-the-board. Some cars are just cobbled together to claim subsidies or even defraud the government, since the subsidies are kind…

They are used in Europe as well, for example Liverpool has a fleet of BYD electrical buses https://www.masstransitmag.com/home/press-release/12371883/b... And they don't look that bad. > ugly plastic toys You were thinking of Teslas, perhaps? ducks

We had an electric bus in my city for testing purposes made by Yutong (another Chinese company), and it really looked like plastic: https://www.ville-rail-transports.com/wp-content/uploads/Cap...

I have no idea why it was not retained for further tests, and I never tried it.

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