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The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

nytimes.com

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Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#41

Post by lucascantor »

rland wrote: post #27
Latteland wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand what the peak of intelligence means if that is termites, bees, humans? What about dolphins, dogs, not to mention chimpanzees, other great apes are likely smarter then them, but it will take some clever tests and clever categorization of intelligence to understand their sense.

The prominence of the peak. Like how Denali is taller than the mountains around it, but Everest is still the tallest. We're quite close to dolphins and killer whales, so the essence of their intelligence is easier for us to understand, because they are more like us. Bees, termites, ants, etc. are really interesting because any individual is pretty stupid, but the entire swarm is complex and intelligent.

Tom Scott has a great video on this topic (what counts as a mountain? - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8P5a1uqIMw)

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#42

Post by bodi »

blattimwind wrote: post #30
Animats wrote: post #3

Octopi are interesting in that they evolved along their own path. The octopus eye has the wiring on the back, where it belongs, instead of on the front blocking some of the light, as most other animals with eyes do.

Curiously the same applies to imaging sensors. They used to be inverse (front-illuminated), for process reasons, but everse (back-illuminated) sensors have better sensitivity and lower noise (but are harder to manufacture). A notable advantage of everse eye construction is the complete absence of a blind spot, which is where all the wiring passes through the sensor surface. (Image sensors never had that problem becau…

Any indication if this backlit image sensor development was inspired by nature (the octopus here, for example) or was just an independent evolution of the technology?

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#43

Post by adzm »

jaggednad wrote: post #37

One theory why primates evolved big brains is because they had hands. Big brains for an animal like a gazelle don’t pay off because, without hands, there isn’t much a gazelle can do with that big brain. Better it use that energy for bigger leg muscles. Primates evolves hands so they could better grasp branches, but, once they had hands, there was a lot more they could do with them, like make tools. A bigger brain for…

Dolphins are also very social creatures which certainly goes alongside their intelligence as an evolutionary pressure — especially with regards to their group hunting strategies, like humans and wolves.

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#44

Post by nine_k »

This is what a failed alien invasion / colonization attempt might look like.

A succesful splashdown, reasonable adaptation to the local conditions — and a fatal flaw speeds up development enormously, bodies replicate and die long before their brains mature. The culture is lost, the invaders turned into animals doing primitive hunting.

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#45

Post by warent »

jaggednad wrote: post #37

One theory why primates evolved big brains is because they had hands. Big brains for an animal like a gazelle don’t pay off because, without hands, there isn’t much a gazelle can do with that big brain. Better it use that energy for bigger leg muscles. Primates evolves hands so they could better grasp branches, but, once they had hands, there was a lot more they could do with them, like make tools. A bigger brain for…

When you're saying "Big brains" I assume you mean a higher level of cognition and awareness in some general sense, not a physically larger brain.

First I think you're getting the cause/effect of evolution backwards. For example, primates did not evolve hands so they could better grasp branches, but rather they better grasp branches because they evolved hands and so had a higher rate of survival.

So the question isn't so much "what causes complex intelligence" (your proposal being hands) but rather "why hasn't complex intelligence appeared for something like the gazelle family tree?"

It's an interesting hypothesis to say that perhaps it's because they don't have hands, but there are innumerable other factors that could also be an influence, I doubt it comes down to a lack of hands.

I'm not a biologist though so take what I'm saying here with a gigantic grain of salt.

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#46

Post by jlawson »

hyperpallium wrote: post #35

How much of an impediment to technological progress would not have being able to tame fire have been? You probably don't need the warmth underwater, but cooking facilitates nutrient absorption ("exodigestion"?), wards off predators, post-sunset light, and (later) smithing, smelting, steam power etc.

I think the lack of thrown weapons would be more basic than fire.

Maybe even held weapons for striking enemies. You can't swing a club underwater due to water resistance, and spears are hard to use well because you don't have feet planted to transmit the force, so you just go backwards if you try to stab something. Not to mention the lack of trees and branches with straight poles.

Meanwhile stone tools and weapons are too heavy to carry. You'll sink.

In fact every tool would either sink or float, and incur huge drag. Which makes tool use much harder overall.

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#47

Post by Nasrudith »

jaggednad wrote: post #37

One theory why primates evolved big brains is because they had hands. Big brains for an animal like a gazelle don’t pay off because, without hands, there isn’t much a gazelle can do with that big brain. Better it use that energy for bigger leg muscles. Primates evolves hands so they could better grasp branches, but, once they had hands, there was a lot more they could do with them, like make tools. A bigger brain for…

Well I think the bigger issue for gazelles is energy density period - brains are calorie hogs and it doesn't take much cunning to track down grass. Grass eating is the opposite direction in a food strategy - going for abundant but low density food instead of chasing higher density.

A diverse diet is a bit of a hallmark of intelligence in itself in that they are able to use their brains to get more food to make it worth the investment - similarly to complex group behavior I guess.

Hermit crabs for instance are shockingly intelligent for crustaceans, especially for ones of their size. I know that improperly shut lids which while closed have enough play - they cold push from the inside causing them to rotate on their axis and let them escape. That isn't quite tool use but recognizing tools unlike anything in nature and how to manipulate them to get what they want.

Hermit crabs have both and live in large social groups and eat a diverse diet as well.

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#48

Post by colanderman »

SAI_Peregrinus wrote: post #39
ams6110 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, please don't. If you want a pet, adopt a dog or cat from the local shelter. At least they have been domesticated long enough that they are better off under human care. Don't keep an animal that had to be captured and removed from its natural habitat.

Don't get a wild-caught parrot. There are plenty of parrots that need new homes. Get one from a rescue. Or if that won't work (none close enough) get a captive bred bird. Also be very, very sure you can take care of the bird for the rest of your life, and will have someone that can take over when you die who the bird will already know and be friendly with. Birds are more work than dogs, they need a whole room in your…

> Also be very, very sure you can take care of the bird for the rest of your life, and will have someone that can take over when you die who the bird will already know and be friendly with.

To be clear, the reason is that parrots bond (with their owner, if alone) for life.

(Don't know why you were downvoted.)

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#50

Post by finnh »

mirimir wrote: post #24
user982 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that spiders sre necessarily unintelligent: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portia_(spider)#Intelligence

I didn't mean to imply that. Indeed, Portia! So if you love Portia, I recommend Peter Watts' Echopraxia and (for a full-length focus) Adrian Tchaikovsky's Children of Time .

Don’t forget A Deepness In The Sky!
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