Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate • Hacker News Board

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#101

Post by refurb » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 10:10 PM UTC

chiefalchemist wrote: post #14

"Thanks in part to increased government assistance, U.S. poverty according to this measure has fallen, especially for children." Pardon me but I'm a tight-ass when it comes to words / language and how their use effects perception. In short, (gov) assistance does __not__ decrease poverty. It might sugar coat poverty. It might keep the poverty stricken alive. Etc. But poverty remains the same. It's there. Alive and wel…

Poverty is not having enough money. If the gov't gives you money, you are no longer in poverty.

Now, if your point is that the gov't payments don't actually solve the underlying issue, that I would agree with.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#102

Post by loco5niner » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 10:11 PM UTC

gammateam wrote: post #90

umvi wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a well off software developer. I've been using a $50 Nokia Lumia 520 for the past 3 years or so. When this one dies I'll likely "splurge" and buy a Nokia 2 ($100). That our I'll buy a Blu phone ($50). I would consider my neighbors poor. They have state-subsidized rent, for example. They use food stamps. They also smoke a pack a day each. All they need to do to buy a new phone is not smoke for 5 days. Not that it…

Being able to send the same emojis to communicate effectively and having blue bubbles is a lot more valuable than you might think If you are part of any professional membership or subscription to get you through life, then there are some similarities The point being that maybe they overspend on conspicuous consumption, using an iphone alone isnt an indicator in isolation. Who knows where the price limit is, but low i…

>Being able to send the same emojis to communicate effectively and having blue bubbles is a lot more valuable than you might think

That's pretty hard to believe.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#103

Post by duck » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 10:11 PM UTC

gammateam wrote: post #90

umvi wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a well off software developer. I've been using a $50 Nokia Lumia 520 for the past 3 years or so. When this one dies I'll likely "splurge" and buy a Nokia 2 ($100). That our I'll buy a Blu phone ($50). I would consider my neighbors poor. They have state-subsidized rent, for example. They use food stamps. They also smoke a pack a day each. All they need to do to buy a new phone is not smoke for 5 days. Not that it…

Being able to send the same emojis to communicate effectively and having blue bubbles is a lot more valuable than you might think If you are part of any professional membership or subscription to get you through life, then there are some similarities The point being that maybe they overspend on conspicuous consumption, using an iphone alone isnt an indicator in isolation. Who knows where the price limit is, but low i…

What is a "blue bubble"?

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#104

Post by soared » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 10:13 PM UTC

antidesitter wrote: post #87

ggm wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it demands all government tax spend in ways to alleviate poverty be viewed as an externality which would not be needed in a higher income workforce. So it has qualities of tax hating but in a context of better social equity in pay. Like you, I think rent controls and low income rent support are supporting better lives for working poor, and do far more than paint over cracks, but the poverty trap is real: peop…

> I think rent controls... are supporting better lives for working poor Rent controls make their situation worse, not better. [1][2][3][4][5] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/12/business/economy/rent-con... [2] https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2015/08/30/... [3] https://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/RentControl.html [4] https://fee.org/articles/rent-control-advocates-need-a-lesso... [5] https://www.b…

I'm struggling to understand the comment above yours, but affordable housing is entirely different than rent control. Denver requires a percentage of every apartment building over a set number of units have some affordable-housing units. This lets lower income people live throughout the city, and doesn't attempt to solve the problem of high rents for non-poor people.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#105

Post by sachdevap » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 10:13 PM UTC

M0T0K0 wrote: post #91

AlexB138 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Bu-bu-bu-bullshit! " Is this really necessary, or the best way to make your point? It really takes away from an otherwise decent post.

I sympathize with RangerScience on this one; the schism between successful individuals who refuse to acknowledge society's role in aiding their success (subsidies, infrastructure, taxes, etc.), versus the less successful who continually get steamrolled over for the former's further advantage. Its obviously more complex than that, but I've met a few who don't help much in the former's depiction.

I think the parent is pointing out that the wording on their parent comment is not helping change anyone's mind.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#106

Post by pitaj » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 10:13 PM UTC

soared wrote: post #98

pitaj wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny you use low-income housing as an example. Housing projects have made many things worse, because they concentrate poverty and therefore crime. It's one of the four columns of the poverty-cycle: - drug war - justice system - housing projects - welfare gap

My view is probably biased since I live in Denver. Every new building with more than a certain number of units (I couldn't find the year it started) is required to have some percentage of units dedicated to low-income / low-rent tenants. So we don't have the problem of concentrated poverty or crime. It is based off of earning a percentage of median income by county (or maybe zip code).

Sure, that's one way to do it, but it also reduces housing supply. This increases housing costs which is really bad for the poor.

The four horsemen of housing cost:

- rent control

- NIMBYism

- zoning

- "affordable housing first!!!"

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#107

Post by jhayward » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 10:15 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #92

jhayward wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> extort wealth until they’re forced back into absolute poverty — which there are signs of happening. ~~It is hardly sufficient to simply say that this outrageous claim requires enormous proof. Please, show me the billionaires who have been forced in to poverty by social program. Please.~~ Edit: I was misreading the above in exactly the wrong direction, wealth-wise. There is indeed quite a bit of evidence that the ec…

I believe you're misreading that line. I believe the claim is that The Rich will extort wealth from the Becoming Better Off until The Becoming Better Off no longer are becoming better off - until they are forced back to absolute poverty. I still think it's fair to ask for evidence on the "signs of happening" part...

Yes, thank you. I've updated my response with some examples of where I think that very thing is happening.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#108

Post by refurb » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 10:15 PM UTC

xadhominemx wrote: post #29

chrisco255 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I come from a very conservative family. Nobody's insecure about non-whites having the ability to vote. They might be worried about the fact that some demographics vote like 95% Democrat, but that's just a concern about blind loyalty to party and identity politics. But agree with your sentiment. Insecurity in general is a very loose term. Some people are prone to believe the sky is falling and there's little that gove…

> Nobody's insecure about non-whites having the ability to vote Actually they are, and go so far as to pass laws specifically to suppress non-white votes https://twitter.com/haroldpollack/status/1051657219899617280

Wow! Talk about not providing context for that quote!

The State's argument was voting hours were inconsistent across the state. The districts that offered additional voting opportunities, that other districts did not have, were predominantly African American and would vote Democratic.

So their answer was to ban Sunday voting so that every district had the same window of opportunity to vote.

One could argue that their solution wasn't the optimal one, but they were aiming to level the playing field.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#109

Post by dlp211 » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 10:17 PM UTC

jhayward wrote: post #44

justaman wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just wanted to point out that racism like that is on its last leg. I used to live in a rural, very conservative, upper class area. While they do watch fox news, they are not racist. Its close minded to call fox news racist or cnn socialist.

"I'm not saying they're racist, I'm just saying that racists like them a lot" [1] (paraphrased from Gillum) [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2018/11/...

The Simpson's cartoon did it first, and they didn't paraphrase[1].

[1] https://www.google.com/search?q=simpsons+fox+news+helicopter...

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#110

Post by segmondy » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 10:18 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #80

post_break wrote: post #62

People cannot buy a phone outright. It's that bad. We're literally financing a $500-1000 device because they can't take the hit up front. Now I'm sure most people here could swing a phone tomorrow if they needed to say theirs was stolen, but you gotta think about how many people just can't. How about tires, there are places to rent tires. Financing a car? Common. 8 payments to put two front tires on your car? Seems i…

I'm a well off software developer. I've been using a $50 Nokia Lumia 520 for the past 3 years or so. When this one dies I'll likely "splurge" and buy a Nokia 2 ($100). That our I'll buy a Blu phone ($50). I would consider my neighbors poor. They have state-subsidized rent, for example. They use food stamps. They also smoke a pack a day each. All they need to do to buy a new phone is not smoke for 5 days. Not that it…

For some people, their phone is their everything, not just a phone, but their computer, they use it for email, net browsing, watching movies on youtube, listening to music. They don't have desktop, nor laptop or cable.