Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate • Hacker News Board

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#61

Post by esotericn » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 9:29 PM UTC

kibwen wrote: post #46

esotericn wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was calm and just enjoyed the time while I was looking for a new job. I have money saved. For a lot of people that will have been an extremely stressful situation. That kind of stress is related to bad-decision taking Without that phenomenon (the "must get a job very soon / now" mindset), loads of low paid / unskilled positions would just never be filled. No-one would work crap jobs. It feels to me like the econo…

This attitude seems alien to me. If there's a job that nobody wants to do, the employer should offer more compensation. If that raises the price of the service such that the venture is no longer profitable, then that indicates a fundamental lack of demand for that service relative to its cost. No poor person should be expected to subsidize the comfort of the higher classes via their desperation.

It's not an attitude - I agree wholeheartedly with what you're saying.

It's what I see when I look out of my window. That is to say, how I think the economy actually works.

Basically no-one with a meaningful amount of capital takes low end jobs, because they don't have to.

They can sit, read, wait, research, calmly consider, study, and find a way out.

They have negotiating power (which is more than just telling a prospective boss a higher number - it's walking away, doing something else entirely, not even showing up to begin with).

Poor people can't do that, which is why they take jobs that barely pay subsistence. They have no other choice and need to take the job that pays them _now_ with the skills they have _now_.

Fundamentally this is why learning to spend less than you earn is probably the most important thing anyone can ever do. If you ever spend all of your money and have no access to credit, your freedom essentially disappears as you're forced to do almost anything someone with money tells you (legal or not).

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#62

Post by post_break » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 9:29 PM UTC

People cannot buy a phone outright. It's that bad. We're literally financing a $500-1000 device because they can't take the hit up front. Now I'm sure most people here could swing a phone tomorrow if they needed to say theirs was stolen, but you gotta think about how many people just can't. How about tires, there are places to rent tires. Financing a car? Common. 8 payments to put two front tires on your car? Seems insane, but for a lot of people in America it's either that or you keep the donut on for a few more months.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#63

Post by watwut » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 9:30 PM UTC

chrisco255 wrote: post #25

FakeComments wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re both right if the drug epidemic is partly fueled by economic woes, as it seems to be.

Previous generations had it way worse than us and they didn't have the suicide rates we have today. There's some things missing in modern society that I feel have faded with time, including family unity, community, ethical education (via church or similar), etc. It was reported recently that loneliness is on the rise in the U.S. and with that, I would expect that these health problems continue to rise as well.

Current graduates face higher unemployment rates and lower salaries. I graduated into strong economy and nearly sure job. I had it better.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#64

Post by forrealfreedom » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 9:32 PM UTC

"It should also strive to measure how secure people feel". So now were basing poverty on feelings. I can't even say how ridiculous this sounds.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#65

Post by someone7x » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 9:35 PM UTC

xadhominemx wrote: post #29

chrisco255 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I come from a very conservative family. Nobody's insecure about non-whites having the ability to vote. They might be worried about the fact that some demographics vote like 95% Democrat, but that's just a concern about blind loyalty to party and identity politics. But agree with your sentiment. Insecurity in general is a very loose term. Some people are prone to believe the sky is falling and there's little that gove…

> Nobody's insecure about non-whites having the ability to vote Actually they are, and go so far as to pass laws specifically to suppress non-white votes https://twitter.com/haroldpollack/status/1051657219899617280

> They were making the argument and affirming that they were discriminating based on political affiliation, in an attempt to show they were not discriminating based on race. It was a conscious legal strategy to admit this.

Wow. Can't be racial prejudice if its already political prejudice.

Reminds me of the court scene in New Jack City where the Wesley Snipes confesses to being a foot soldier and therefore he can't be the kingpin.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#66

Post by meddlepal » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 9:36 PM UTC

post_break wrote: post #62

People cannot buy a phone outright. It's that bad. We're literally financing a $500-1000 device because they can't take the hit up front. Now I'm sure most people here could swing a phone tomorrow if they needed to say theirs was stolen, but you gotta think about how many people just can't. How about tires, there are places to rent tires. Financing a car? Common. 8 payments to put two front tires on your car? Seems i…

The problem is largely people buying things they cannot afford.

Everyone wants a smart phone, a large television, a game console and a bunch of other junk. But what you want is not necessarily what you can afford.

Now I am not necessarily disagreeing with your point. There are legitimate life needs that people cannot afford (e.g. the tires and car you cited), but nobody needs a $500-$1000 smart phone. Nobody needs a top of the line television, computer, internet connection or subscriptions to all the fancy on-demand media services... and yet by and large American's want these things.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#67

Post by coryrc » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 9:38 PM UTC

post_break wrote: post #62

People cannot buy a phone outright. It's that bad. We're literally financing a $500-1000 device because they can't take the hit up front. Now I'm sure most people here could swing a phone tomorrow if they needed to say theirs was stolen, but you gotta think about how many people just can't. How about tires, there are places to rent tires. Financing a car? Common. 8 payments to put two front tires on your car? Seems i…

A car isn't a necessity. A $500-$1000 phone is not a necessity. These are bad choices people make. Why they make those choices is subject to many theories, but their situation is entirely within their power (but maybe not knowledge) to fix.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#68

Post by coliveira » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 9:38 PM UTC

justaman wrote: post #37

tracer4201 wrote: post #18

>A reasonable, common-sense definition of poverty should include not just an absolute measure of material deprivation and a relative gauge of a person’s situation compared to the rest of society. It should also strive to measure how secure people feel — in their homes, their health, and their jobs. I generally agree, but this has potential downsides. A good friend of mine from college comes from a very conservative f…

I just wanted to point out that racism like that is on its last leg. I used to live in a rural, very conservative, upper class area. While they do watch fox news, they are not racist. Its close minded to call fox news racist or cnn socialist.

Conservatism tries to maintain the existing structures of society and, in a country like USA, these structures are racially determined - it is just part of the history of the country. Therefore, conservative policies will tend to maintain racial discrimination, even when this is not the stated goal of the policy maker.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#69

Post by batty_alex » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 9:40 PM UTC

esotericn wrote: post #40

batty_alex wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That kind of stress is related to bad-decision taking and reduced life expectancy. I can't tell if you're really meaning to say that people down on their luck are there because they deserve it. It's just not that black-and-white. EDIT: I read this wrong. I agree with what you're saying, "related to" would have made more sense as "leads to". > Nowadays they depend more and more on credits and increase the amount bor…

No, it's the other way around. People fail, and then there's a downward spiral, because if you're poor you eat bad food and have no time and can't _think_. That is to say, there wasn't necessarily 'choice' involved (beyond in some cases an initial choice which was made without full vision of the future).

Thanks for pointing this out, the wording from OP's post was a bit confusing to me.

This was my retort, that it's not black-and-white that poor decisions were made and someone is now a missed paycheck away from living on the streets.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#70

Post by InclinedPlane » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 9:41 PM UTC

chrisco255 wrote: post #25

FakeComments wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re both right if the drug epidemic is partly fueled by economic woes, as it seems to be.

Previous generations had it way worse than us and they didn't have the suicide rates we have today. There's some things missing in modern society that I feel have faded with time, including family unity, community, ethical education (via church or similar), etc. It was reported recently that loneliness is on the rise in the U.S. and with that, I would expect that these health problems continue to rise as well.

A tidy narrative, but not based in reality. Previous generations had easy access to decent paying jobs. Show up and work, that used to be commonplace, now it's rare. And that work used to pay enough to rent a room, pay for college, even set aside some savings, now housing is ridiculously expensive and college represents a massive debt burden. It's a lot more difficult to work your way out of poverty than it used to be.