Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate • Hacker News Board

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#71

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 9:42 PM UTC

xadhominemx wrote: post #29

chrisco255 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I come from a very conservative family. Nobody's insecure about non-whites having the ability to vote. They might be worried about the fact that some demographics vote like 95% Democrat, but that's just a concern about blind loyalty to party and identity politics. But agree with your sentiment. Insecurity in general is a very loose term. Some people are prone to believe the sky is falling and there's little that gove…

> Nobody's insecure about non-whites having the ability to vote Actually they are, and go so far as to pass laws specifically to suppress non-white votes https://twitter.com/haroldpollack/status/1051657219899617280

[deleted]

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#72

Post by BeetleB » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 9:42 PM UTC

tracer4201 wrote: post #18

>A reasonable, common-sense definition of poverty should include not just an absolute measure of material deprivation and a relative gauge of a person’s situation compared to the rest of society. It should also strive to measure how secure people feel — in their homes, their health, and their jobs. I generally agree, but this has potential downsides. A good friend of mine from college comes from a very conservative f…

I think the benchmark they are suggesting is: Is their insecurity resulting in their making decisions that affect their ability to have the fundamentals (roof over head, food on plate, etc)? And if those fears come true, will it materially affect them to the point where they could lose that roof?

For the former: If their fear/insecurity is causing them to pay more than they could/should afford in bunkers, security guards, etc, then I would say according to the article: "Yes".

But that's true for almost no one in the demographic you're highlighting.

For the latter: If immigration (legal/illegal) keeps continuing, or other demographics gain more voting power, will they likely lose that $1M house? I don't think so.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#73

Post by coliveira » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 9:42 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #50

User23 wrote: post #32

Poverty is not a disease. It's not a malady that can be treated or cured. It is a consequence of many factors, but above all it is primarily a consequence, not a cause. What causes poverty? Well like any other widespread social phenomenon, the causes are varied. Crime is an obvious one. Poor decision making is another. For example, a seemingly absurd 70% of windfall recipients go broke[1]. It's evident that the major…

I generally agree with you, but I'm somewhat convinced windfalls are hard to manage for both rich and poor. This is because it has less to do with poor decision making and more to do with the new target on your back. You are now a wounded sheep with hungry predators all around you (in the form of family, friends, thieves, lawyers, etc). I first ran across this idea when I read a reddit thread mentioning Jack Whittake…

If you win a lot of money in the lottery, your best option is to run and resettle in another place where people don't know you.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#74

Post by afpx » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 9:43 PM UTC

User23 wrote: post #32

Poverty is not a disease. It's not a malady that can be treated or cured. It is a consequence of many factors, but above all it is primarily a consequence, not a cause. What causes poverty? Well like any other widespread social phenomenon, the causes are varied. Crime is an obvious one. Poor decision making is another. For example, a seemingly absurd 70% of windfall recipients go broke[1]. It's evident that the major…

This is a tough subject because it’s an emotional one, and lots of people do make knee jerk reactions. I know plenty of people who feel that they know the causes or consequences or solutions, but yet few of them seem to take a long, deep analysis.

For example, the opinion that successful people make decisions X, Y, and Z and unsuccessful people don’t is a very attractive intuition. Yet, it’s very difficult to support without broad longitudinal data. And, even then, how do you control for the many other factors, especially ones that change over time?

So, consider your observation that poor people are worse and rich people better (at making decisions). How do you know if there’s survivorship bias at work? That is, without taking a population at birth and requiring them to make ‘the good decisions’ throughout their lives, how do you actually know?

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#75

Post by pitaj » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 9:44 PM UTC

soared wrote: post #43

chiefalchemist wrote: post #14

"Thanks in part to increased government assistance, U.S. poverty according to this measure has fallen, especially for children." Pardon me but I'm a tight-ass when it comes to words / language and how their use effects perception. In short, (gov) assistance does __not__ decrease poverty. It might sugar coat poverty. It might keep the poverty stricken alive. Etc. But poverty remains the same. It's there. Alive and wel…

> In short, (gov) assistance does __not__ decrease poverty Source? I feel as though the equal housing act and low-income housing decrease this definition of poverty by making housing secure.

Funny you use low-income housing as an example. Housing projects have made many things worse, because they concentrate poverty and therefore crime. It's one of the four columns of the poverty-cycle:

- drug war

- justice system

- housing projects

- welfare gap

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#76

Post by savanaly » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 9:46 PM UTC

post_break wrote: post #62

People cannot buy a phone outright. It's that bad. We're literally financing a $500-1000 device because they can't take the hit up front. Now I'm sure most people here could swing a phone tomorrow if they needed to say theirs was stolen, but you gotta think about how many people just can't. How about tires, there are places to rent tires. Financing a car? Common. 8 payments to put two front tires on your car? Seems i…

A phone of that cost is a luxury item. Now I'm in the category of people who can afford that and I want to make sure I'm not just living in a bubble when I dismiss what you said, so I opened up a tab and typed in "cheap phone" to google. The first result is a $20 phone from best buy. It appears to do calls, take pictures and video, do web browsing and have some library of available apps. So I don't think "People cannot buy a phone outright" is a very helpful way to frame it. Rather say that "people cannot buy a top of the line luxury brand-name phone outright". Which doesn't sound as bad, right?

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#77

Post by petermcneeley » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 9:46 PM UTC

ggm wrote: post #49

soared wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In short, (gov) assistance does __not__ decrease poverty Source? I feel as though the equal housing act and low-income housing decrease this definition of poverty by making housing secure.

I think it demands all government tax spend in ways to alleviate poverty be viewed as an externality which would not be needed in a higher income workforce. So it has qualities of tax hating but in a context of better social equity in pay. Like you, I think rent controls and low income rent support are supporting better lives for working poor, and do far more than paint over cracks, but the poverty trap is real: peop…

So your in support of UBI instead?

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#78

Post by zaroth » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 9:47 PM UTC

post_break wrote: post #62

People cannot buy a phone outright. It's that bad. We're literally financing a $500-1000 device because they can't take the hit up front. Now I'm sure most people here could swing a phone tomorrow if they needed to say theirs was stolen, but you gotta think about how many people just can't. How about tires, there are places to rent tires. Financing a car? Common. 8 payments to put two front tires on your car? Seems i…

I think there’s nothing inherently wrong with spreading out payments for durable goods over the lifespan of the device, only if it can be done at a reason APY.

The problem with pay-as-you-go is the interest rates, penalties, fees, etc.

When AT&T or Apple sells me a phone with a monthly payment, I take it because it’s literally the price divided by 24 payments. Zero percent interest. No brainer.

Better debt servicing and better risk assessment and higher trust in buyers would bring down default rates and decrease APY making these programs reasonable and proper. At the extortionate rates necessary due to the extreme default rates and difficulty in collecting payments, they are terrible.

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#79

Post by petermcneeley » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 9:48 PM UTC

chiefalchemist wrote: post #14

"Thanks in part to increased government assistance, U.S. poverty according to this measure has fallen, especially for children." Pardon me but I'm a tight-ass when it comes to words / language and how their use effects perception. In short, (gov) assistance does __not__ decrease poverty. It might sugar coat poverty. It might keep the poverty stricken alive. Etc. But poverty remains the same. It's there. Alive and wel…

If I get the support of my rich uncle for food and housing did he help reduce my poverty? I would say he did... If his name is Sam suddenly its untrue?

Re: Poverty in America: Greater Than Statistics Indicate

#80

Post by umvi » Fri, Nov 30, 2018, 9:48 PM UTC

post_break wrote: post #62

People cannot buy a phone outright. It's that bad. We're literally financing a $500-1000 device because they can't take the hit up front. Now I'm sure most people here could swing a phone tomorrow if they needed to say theirs was stolen, but you gotta think about how many people just can't. How about tires, there are places to rent tires. Financing a car? Common. 8 payments to put two front tires on your car? Seems i…

I'm a well off software developer. I've been using a $50 Nokia Lumia 520 for the past 3 years or so. When this one dies I'll likely "splurge" and buy a Nokia 2 ($100). That our I'll buy a Blu phone ($50).

I would consider my neighbors poor. They have state-subsidized rent, for example. They use food stamps. They also smoke a pack a day each. All they need to do to buy a new phone is not smoke for 5 days. Not that it matters, they all have iPhones inexplicably. It's just a viscous self-feeding cycle and I don't know how to help them break out of it.