We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly • Hacker News Board

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#751

Post by dymk » Wed, Nov 28, 2018, 2:41 AM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #672

dymk wrote: post #655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What protesters were willing to do in the 60s or in 2018 is orthogonal to ensuring that Google maintains a workforce of "moral" people. Suggestions that those who think that Google is going down a dark path should leave will just result in moral evaporative cooling, which leaves everybody off worse.

That sounds like the same excuse that companies and the government used in the 80s when people were trying to get the government to impose sanctions on South Africa over apartheid. Signing a piece of paper knowing that it is of no personal risk to you is virtue signaling. Why should that get a company to change? What will be the consequences if they go ahead with thier plan? A more harshly written letter?

Google entering China is morally equivalent to South African apartheid? Okay, I think we have fundamentally different views on what kind of "stand" this warrants.

The clear implication is that these people will quit the company if Google goes forward with Dragonfly.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#752

Post by ardy42 » Wed, Nov 28, 2018, 2:43 AM UTC

RJIb8RBYxzAMX9u wrote: post #717

nothrabannosir wrote: post #585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People downthread have remarked on the lack of Chinese signatories, commenting on how the Chinese government tracks their citizens abroad. With ramifications for their family and friends as actual, real possibilities, according to some commenters. If that were true, then their silence can definitely not be construed as any kind of tacit agreement, or even disinterest. How many Chinese citizens (or people otherwise su…

While threats from the Chinese government may be valid, it's more likely that they don't want to / cannot risk their H-1B status or green card priority date. So their immediate threat is more likely (indirectly) coming from USG.

> While threats from the Chinese government may be valid, it's more likely that they don't want to / cannot risk their H-1B status or green card priority date. So their immediate threat is more likely (indirectly) coming from USG.

That doesn't make a lot of sense. I don't see why the USG would want to sanction them, especially since this letter has nothing to do with the USG.

If they're discouraged from signing due to their US visa status, the mechanism that makes more sense is that they fear Google could fire them and it would take them longer than 60 days to line up another job that could sponsor them.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#753

Post by AnthonyMouse » Wed, Nov 28, 2018, 2:46 AM UTC

ineedasername wrote: post #742

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #716

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Worker's unions helped win the majority of our rights in modern democracies. I wish this fact was more widely appreciated. The problem with modern unions, particularly in tech, is that the legacy structure is inapt for current problems. Tech workers don't need a union to negotiate compensation, they're compensated fine already. They don't need a huge bureaucratic structure for engaging in long-term detailed negotia…

How do you get and pay for the infrastructure of this direct democracy without resources paid for by dues? How do you get the minority in any vote to go along with the result when there isn't any common binding agreement such as a contract that enforces majority rule?

> How do you get and pay for the infrastructure of this direct democracy without resources paid for by dues?

The technology needed to let people submit proposals and let other people vote on them is on the level what individuals do over a weekend as adjunct to a side project.

> How do you get the minority in any vote to go along with the result when there isn't any common binding agreement such as a contract that enforces majority rule?

Why do you need to force them to? By definition the majority will already agree, and then many in the minority would participate out of solidarity because that's the whole point of joining a union to begin with. You don't need 100.0%, a large majority is quite sufficient in general. And anything that actually required 100.0% is already lost, because then they could pay off the cheapest defector or contract it out.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#754

Post by AnthonyMouse » Wed, Nov 28, 2018, 2:51 AM UTC

cultus wrote: post #731

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #716

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Worker's unions helped win the majority of our rights in modern democracies. I wish this fact was more widely appreciated. The problem with modern unions, particularly in tech, is that the legacy structure is inapt for current problems. Tech workers don't need a union to negotiate compensation, they're compensated fine already. They don't need a huge bureaucratic structure for engaging in long-term detailed negotia…

> Tech workers don't need a union to negotiate compensation, they're compensated fine already. Software one of the highest margins of any industry. They can afford to pay more, especially since they are constantly whining about "shortages" of tech workers. http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~adamodar/New_Home_Page/datafile/...

> They can afford to pay more

Which is why they already do pay more than other industries.

The best argument you have against that is the anti-poaching shenanigans they've engaged in -- but that's already illegal, so the answer there is a courtroom rather than a union.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#755

Post by pompousprick » Wed, Nov 28, 2018, 2:52 AM UTC

petee wrote: post #741

kiliantics wrote: post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worker's unions helped win the majority of our rights in modern democracies. I wish this fact was more widely appreciated.

I wish more people knew that workers fought and died for those rights. Its one thing to say maybe you'll quit, or skip your pay check for change, its another to actually put your life on the line for what you know is right.

Since China is known for its countless human rights violations, Are these Google employees also going to...

1. Give up their Chinese-Manufactured iPhones/Android Phones? Tablets? Laptops and workstations??

2. Give up watching movies/shows on their Chinese-manufactured TVs??

3. Stop wearing Chinese-made iwatches/fitbits/etc.??

4. Boycott silicon valley startups that have accepted chinese investments?

5. Boycott every product by US/Foreign company (Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Samsung, GE, Disney, Chevron, Exxon, Shell, etc.) doing business in China?

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#756

Post by fouc » Wed, Nov 28, 2018, 3:05 AM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #460

vorpalhex wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we should also have size caps on companies As a thought experiment, I've often wondered the best way to maintain the positive corporate culture that small companies tend to lose as they grow. It's not clear it's simply growth, or whether it's profits. I wonder if a non-charity oriented non-profit would maintain a better corporate culture.

Dunbar's Number, I believe, gives some insight. Basically, humans can only maintain about 150 relationships. As organizations grow personal relationships are replaced with rules and structures as a matter of necessity.

Agreed. I suppose sociopaths can get away with more when there's so many people that the relationship/connections between everyone are weaker on average.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#757

Post by tvvocold » Wed, Nov 28, 2018, 3:09 AM UTC

Local Chinese here, Personally, I don't need Dragonfly because I can cross the GFW of China, but other people in China can't. They currently suffer from China monopoly - Baidu's shitty and annoying search results. So I'd like to see an alternative search engine come to here even if it does have some trade-offs. From another perspective, even Google does provide an uncensored search result here, most Chinese users still cannot access them because of the firewall. What's the difference of censored and uncensored result for them? In the long run, I do think China will close the firewall someday. So let us (Chinese) take the trade-off for now and move forward.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#758

Post by dang » Wed, Nov 28, 2018, 3:20 AM UTC

beams_of_light wrote: post #490

If you think that denying information to Chinese people because their Orwellian government demands it is the same as the stone you use to grind your obviously conservative axe on, you may need to pause and think a bit more on it.

This comment breaks the site guidelines. Ideological warfare, flamewar, and personal attacks are just what we're trying to avoid here, and here you managed to combine all three.

On HN, the idea is: if you have a substantive point to make, make it thoughtfully; if you don't, please don't comment until you do. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and use the site as intended in the future, we'd appreciate it.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18545761.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#759

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Nov 28, 2018, 3:22 AM UTC

Puer wrote: post #38

I considered working at Google last year after a recruiter reached out to me, but their decision to backtrack on their promise in China changed my mind. I do not morally condemn anyone who works at Google. I have many good friends that are both bright engineers and undeniably good people that work there. I just feel that as someone who's family is Taiwanese, I cannot in good consciousness support the company. I let t…

[deleted]

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#760

Post by ehsankia » Wed, Nov 28, 2018, 3:23 AM UTC

gregmac wrote: post #3

Quick summary (if you don't know the name "Dragonfly", like I didn't): > We are Google employees and we join Amnesty International in calling on Google to cancel project Dragonfly, Google’s effort to create a censored search engine for the Chinese market that enables state surveillance. > Our opposition to Dragonfly is not about China: we object to technologies that aid the powerful in oppressing the vulnerable, wher…

> we object to technologies that aid the powerful in oppressing the vulnerable, wherever they may be.

And where's the actual research showing that Google in China would do such a thing? By all calculations, it would bring more knowledge and access to Chinese citizen that they already have.

This make it sound like Google is the reason why the citizen don't have access to information.